Is there a behaviorist in the house ?

[dylansdad]

Hi all - I've not been on the forum for a while and it's nice to be back

We fostered and then adopted Skye (formerly Merle, of this parish) in April 2014 and to be honest, she has come a looong way

Initially she was somwewhat shutdown and would just stand and shake at the park, wouldn't poo anywhere other than the back garden and needed to sleep where we were. We believe she had been tied up, never allowed off lead, beaten and almost certainly dominated / attacked by other dog(s). This is bringing together over 2 years of watching her interact with people (whom she loves) and dogs (- not so much)

She will get to know a new dog, with patience, and indulgence from both the other dog and it's owner. she will perform reasonably well in an obedience class and has spent time with Jim Greenwood. But we seem to have hit a bit of a plateau, in that we have run out of friendly, co operative (indulgent) dogs & walkers that she doesn't know.

I did try a local place called 'Poochie Play Centre' which she hated at first, but seemed to progress after a couple of weeks intensive sessions (and £200 +) . However since having a break last weekend, she seems if anything more reactive than before. The centre has several fenced off areas and dogs are closely supervised. Initially Skye was in a pen on her own near to the other dogs and progressed with some steady characters being introduced next to her pen and eventually in it.

After a week she was in the main area with 6 or 7 others all unmuzzled & all behaving well.

She is now absolutely fine at home, with our dogs and with dogs she has come to know, but its the random unknown (offlead) dog that sends her doolally.

Cheers

[jodav]

Hi dylansdad

Can't confess to being a 'behaviourist in the house' but having nurtured a reactive hound for the last 5 years, having completed on-line qualifications in many forms of dog behaviour and having read widely, I guess I at least have an opinion!

Having sampled a workshop session from Jim Greenwood, monthly sighthound group social walks, greyhound playgroups, street collections and outdoor walks with a dog trainer I would say that there is no one single 'fix' to a dog that reacts to other dogs. If you consider that much reactivity is based on acting defensively through fear or anxiety, then it seems obvious that your dog is going to be calmer/happier/more confident if it can be sure of the other dog's reactions or intentions, hence they are happier with dogs they have met before. Reading another dog's body language is sometimes tricky for our hounds. If we learn to read the body language of an on-coming off-lead dog, we can act accordingly and help our own dogs no end. In my experience, eye contact between the dogs seems to be the catalyst to reactivity, combined with being too close.

My dog Paddy is riled by eye contact from an unknown dog but ... if the other dog stops, turns its head, sits down or even better lies down, this takes the heat out of the situation and Paddy will notably relax. We cannot stop our dogs coming into contact with unknown dogs but we can help them by training them with gorgeous treats to look at us and break the 'stare-off.' Glances at the other dog during the training help the dog to accept that they will see 'strangers' and nothing happens other than they look at their owner and get a treat. Over time, they become more accepting of other dogs.

Dogs that run up too close and persist in their intrusion are a pain that we all encounter at different times. Not much advice in these circumstances except to shout at owners to recall their dog and try to calm ours. Learn as much about dog body language as possible is my advice and good luck with Skye.

Jo

[gazer]

I remember taking my reactive lad Solo to dog classes, just for socialisation, we were in a hall, he was muzzled just in case, the first couple of weeks he was dreadful, terrified and flew at anything that came close.  There seemed to be a large circle around him and if anyone ventured into that area, he couldn't cope and would kick off.  After a while he did settle and focused on me during our sessions, he tolerated the other dogs really well and his outbursts disappeared.

However when we were out and about, most dogs that came up to him or appeared 'rude' in any way, he would lose it and his demons came back.  This continued up 'til the time he went to the bridge.

What I'm saying I think is he got used to the hall and the dogs in it, but put him in a different surrounding and he would have to learn all that over again, just because he had done well at the classes, didn't seem to mean he would be the same in a diffeent place.

I learned to manage Solo and I think he was a happy boy, I just didn't put him in situations where I knew he may react, a lovely walk on a field away from it all was his favourite time. 

Rude offlead dogs are a pain and owners that don't realise their dogs are making a nuisance of themselves are the worst.

[BrilliantFamilyDog]

Distance is always key for dogs who are unhappy about other dogs - and preventing staring is important, as jodav said.

Here’s a very good video on Dog Body Language which may help you: www.youtube.com/watch?v=00_9JPltXHI


I think daycare may be a step too far for Skye. Being surrounded by strange and possibly boisterous dogs for long periods could be causing her to shut down, rather than enjoy it. So now she appears more reactive because when she sees one dog on its own she thinks “I can get rid of this one for sure!”

[dylansdad]

Hi Jacqui and Beverly

Skye is doing exactly the same as Solo and I agree, she's probably worked out that at training & daycare there is not a threat and she may also be retreating into her inner happy place.

The daycare was only for 1 or 2 hrs at a time and She was seemingly quite happy once she'd settled.

I know she can be good with other dogs, it just seems that she needs to learn about one dog at a time and its a slow process.

I've even considered asking the vet for some short lived happy pills (for her, you understand) as other than out walking, she is a very content hound

[jodav]

Being in a hall or training class is very different to being out on a walk near home, which in our case Paddy regards as territory. Paddy sees a solitary dog walking towards him near his home as something he can challenge. Compare that to a local beautiful coastline walk called Hengistbury Head near Christchurch which is frequented by literally dozens of dogs of all breeds, all the time. Here he is out-numbered, more tentative and far less reactive. Yes some dogs need to get to know one dog at a time and we have to accept that. A good friend of mine, who is a member on here, has a border collie that Paddy accepts with no hesitation - because he knows the dog's individual smell and body language - other border collies cause him upset. Why - because they stare and go low to the ground, behaviours that could be interpreted by him as a challenge.
I wouldn't be tempted to try happy pill for any of my dogs.
Jo

[dylansdad]

Again, I agree that in a hall or class is very different, but we need to do something for her - she is such a loving happy girlie in almost every other respect.

[becgeo]

Hi, have you tried working with her out on walks at controlled distances to get her gradually more comfortable with strange dogs? I.e. rewarding her for being calm when she sees another dog at a distance and then gradually reducing that? This worked really well with my reactive lurcher Bonnie although it did take some time, She is still reactive but we did see significant improvement. It does rely on choosing quieter times to walk where you are able to control the distances from other dogs and hoping to find an area to walk with not too many out of control off lead dogs...x hope you manage to sort something out to try x

[julies]

HI
I always think that I don't like everyone I meet and so I don't expect my dogs too either

I always try to find my dog's coping distance ie the distance that he can stand and watch (a bit) then move on and/or get a high value treat ... don't forget that he might not be able to watch for very long at all in our view but for him to stand still and watch another dog would be huge.

I find that greys and some lurchers shutdown to cope so they may appear to be OK but actually they have simply stopped trying to respond cos they are so frightened- I learn what my dogs signals are and move them out of the situation hopefully before it becomes too much but definitely move them if I realise they are having difficulty coping.

My Charlie eventually would cope with any dog if we walked with them for about 20 minutes - the other dogs could be off lead but had to stay away from us, once Charlie settled I could let him off, he would trot around and potter with the others and be absolutely fine. He always was worried by Collies and as many dogs do - some Collies have a very hard stare which has been developed to scare and move sheep but eye contact is very challenging for many dogs so its understandable that many dogs can't cope- and many collie owners don't realise what their dog is ding so allow them to carry on

Don't forget too that (like greyhounds) some lurchers won't have been socialised with other breeds except probably small terriers as they work with them so you need to make sure all introductions are at the level and speed that your dog can cope with to build their confidence. It sounds like you're doing well and she has some nice dog friends so I'd build on that and her confidence will increase dog daycare can be good but again if your dog is worried by another she can't move away from them so that will increase her concern.

Again training classes can really help but it needs to be tailored to what your dog can cope with (not make them come in to a class and expect them to cope ) I would start a very worried dog usually outside on its own so I know how the owner can cope with the dog then I introduce a very calm, well-socialised dog often just have them sitting still then progress to them moving and eventually introduce other dogs one-by-one and get them into class but only for minutes and put them by the fire exit to allow them to leave every so often and return .

TTouch will help build confidence and teach her to relax and harness with a double ended lead will also take the pressure off her neck which and reduce reactivity

Good luck with her

X

[BrilliantFamilyDog]

Good advice from julies, and she explains what is meant by shutting down. It doesn't mean the dog can cope, but that she stops interacting because she can't cope. A class *can* help as long as it has a small number of dogs in a large space, and the trainer is sympathetic and skilled with shy and anxious dogs. You need a force-free trainer!

julies's suggestions about distance are very important. When you find a distance at which Skye can briefly look at another dog without reacting (could be 50-100 yards) post super-yummy treats into her mouth as quick as you can, one after the other, then turn and move on.

Your distance will gradually shrink as her confidence grows.

[Ted]

I Must be lucky in that my four Sighthounds greet other dogs okay, sometimes they will bark at them but just saying Hi. They will tell dogs off that try to bother them but there is no aggression. I did take them training to meet all sorts of other dogs as the training sessions had 5 minutes at the start and the end of the hour's session where they could play with, chase and be chased by the other dogs.

[jodav]

Read about BAT therapy as described by becgeo or maybe use the dog yellow advisory bandana or lead 'I need space' which may help to inform other dog walkers so that they help you. Do what Jim Greenwood advises which is something like plan, prepare, act. Imagine a dog interaction scenario, teach a 'me' cue where your voice matches the brevity of the word or and get eye contact and then treat reward. If the dog gives signals of being stressed, move to a safer distance or move away completely. Sighthound group walks help some of our dogs to cope with 'random, unknown, off-lead dogs.' It takes a long time and a lot of patience and persistence to see results. At some point your dog will have to 'see' many types of dogs, not just well-mannered ones.

Today we went to a fund raiser for a therapy dog charity which both of my dogs are members of. There were dozens of unknown dogs present of all sizes, Yorkies, Labradors a Leonberger, as well as many dogs which were not therapy dogs and implusive, excited and full-on. My dog Paddy remained calm and composed and only once showed some interest in a small breed but refrained by reacting. I would never have thought a few years ago that he would have behaved so well but he did.

[dylansdad]

Wow there's a lot of info

1st point to note is that we have 3 dogs and walk them together. Skye is the middle dog in tems of pack seniority. She will naturally kick off if Dylan whippet (bottom of the pack) is offlead and goes to greet other dogs - perhaps we should keep him onlead or would I be better to walk her on her own ?

She has a variable coping distance, anything from 2-3 Meters to half a field away I guess that depends on the other dogs attitude (posture, demeanour, plus 101 secret dog signals).

If we see a new dog locally & after she has had her say, I will follow the owner/dog at a distance (trying not to appear like I'm a loonie / stalker) And engage with them. This has been a largely successful strategy and this is the basis for how we have introduced her to almost all strange dogs. Like I said, all well and good while we can use this strategy but the offlead collie popping out of the trees or a young lab wanting to come and play are far too much for her to cope with.

She has now been to the gap show on 3 occasions, each time improving, most recently, we were able to go round the entire event 3 or 4 times without her being too scared. This may be an example of her retreating to her happy place due to the sheer number of hounds.

I'll check out BAT and TT - anyone know of a reputable practioner in the UK Midlands area who can help / mentor me ?

One thing I'm not short of is search engine hits, An organisation called Barkbusters gets a lot of hits, but at £350 for 12 months support is a big commitment without independent review.

Cheers

[2tuxedos]

Might be too far, but maybe Wendy will be able to recommended someone if its out of her range. We've been seeing her with our foster mutt to work on few issues including reactivity. She does clicker training www.wendyhill-dog-training.co.uk/

I'm not sure I can do her advice justice as still getting head round info at moment.

[BrilliantFamilyDog]

Dylansdad: "I'll check out BAT and TT - anyone know of a reputable practioner in the UK Midlands area who can help / mentor me ?"

Sorry! Only just picked this up. Check out empoweredanimals.com to find a CBATI in your area. I'm one, and I'm in Malvern.

Walking Skye alone is a good move. The "stalking" is also a good idea - as long as the stalked dog is happy about this.