Daley-What's going on here? Excitement vs nervous aggression

[tinar]

Since Sonia was attacked last October Daley has started to be quite reactive to certain dogs, increasingly so as time has gone on.

It seems to be mainly fast running dogs, some male dogs [not quite all], certain breeds [spaniels, male black/brown labradors some collies - not all, and some bouncy puppies .

At first I thought it was excitement as he barked and wagged his tail, but he started lunging and sometimes air snapping - being careful not to get too close, and I started to read an element of fear in there.

With calm introduction he's fine with most dogs and will greet and walk happily in a group of dogs, but there are a handful with which he will not settle, and he starts to react, barking and lunging when they are far away and haven't even noticed him.

When I see him staring or starting to work himself up I try to distract him or take him to the hedgerow for 'sniffing' and that often diffuses his anxiety. He refuses treats anyway on walks but will respond by looking at you if you chatter to him, but even then you can see he's sometimes trying to keep the other dog in his peripheral awareness.

We walk with the same group of friends every day and they've been fantastic, really supportive, and he's more than comfortable with all of them and their dogs [his dog friends- bless].Even with these dogs, who he's really comfortable around, he sometimes does the 'excited' barking when they are having a mad run around, as if he'd like to join in. [He can't be let off lead - he has zero recall]. I used to let him bark like this as it seemed to be his way of joining in the running around games, but then it seemed to escalate as he got excited and he would air-snap as they whizzed past, still wagging his tail and clearly enjoying himself.

There's clearly no malice there, but I've started muzzling him for safety, and that helps me to stay calmer about it as I'm not trying to head him off all the time and can concentrate on helping him, not trying to intervene to prevent him accidentally nipping as he bounces around barking like a loon. I also try to divert him and not let him get too excited with the barking, or to bark too much.

I believe some of his behaviour may be rooted in his 'track' days as he broke his hock whilst racing and is still funny about running. You can see he wants to but isn't sure if he should.

Julies, what kind of t-touch do you use in these situations? I've tried ear slides and this helps calm him once I have his attention.

I have to say I find this so hard to understand I'm no expert and I'm really struggling to identify what triggers Daley so I can 'divert' his attention, help him relax with other dogs, and work through his issues. I'm even confused as to the difference between excitement and nervous aggression. One day he'll greet the same dog happily and the next day lunge and snap/run away.

Sadly I don't speak dog so I don't understand it......but the rewards are in every tiny success, so I keep it up even on the difficult days.

It's nice to know I'm not the only one struggling to help my hound overcome this as I've just read Merle's thread and luckily Daley is not totally terrified, but any advice would be most welcome.
Thanks
Tina

[jodav]

Hi Tinar

I have a very bossy/exciteable hound Tracy who gets very barky when she sees running dogs or in fact any dogs . My experience is that when she is with dogs she knows and in a safe environment, I let her off and she run around with the pack. She is the one barking at a younger, more energetic dog to get them to run so that she can chase them After a while you get to know the difference between the barks and the body language. I think it's easy for us to interpret all dog barks with nervous anticipation and imagine trouble but somtimes you just have to go with it (within reason!) Group hound walks are best to try this I might add. You mention that Daley has zero recall - in many situations this would be problematic but if you are with the same group of friends and in a safe environment, ie no roads, open space, no wildlife around, beaches, parks etc the chances are he would run with the other dogs and come back with them. Practicing recall slowly with very high value treats will help in the end.

Understanding the Silent Communication of Dogs by Rosie Lowrie might be of interest.

TTouches can help calm them down when they don't know other dogs, small circles around their jaws or neck, zig zags up and down their body can help also.

Jo x

[tinar]

Thanks Jo, your Tracy sounds very like Sonia, who does the yappy little bark to egg the others on, wiggling and dancing to get the other dog to play/run. I thought that's what Daley was doing to start with until he started getting snappy [excited snappy]

We did once try letting Daley off with his pack of friends, it was quite comical as everyone agreed to help catch him if he didn't stay with the pack. He ran about 5 - yards with the other dogs , then started to swan off to the other end of the field. Funnily enough, the other dogs in the pack seemed to club together and headed him off shepherding him back to me, which was pretty amazing.

Daley starts off the same way you describe, like it's all fun, but I think he then gets frustrated as he can't run with the others. So we tried taking them all in the tennis court, and once again Daley doesn't actually join in, he goes off sniffing by himself and ignores the pack.


Daley' been with us since February 2012, and has been displaying this behaviour since October,after Sonia was attacked I started to get uncomfortable around other dogs, affecting both hounds, but I have worked through his and am back to being normal and relaxed around them. Often Daley is displaying agitated behaviour before I've even noticed the dog he's seen. I've tried ignoring him and walking away in case it was some kind of attention seeking as well.

I liked the Rosie Lowrie book, and the Turid Rugaas book on Barking and Body language, and I'm still flummoxed ??

[julies]

Hi Tinar
Ear slides are great - like you say they can really calm a dog and you can do them whilst standing with your dog so hopefully they'll have some affect when things are going wrong ... I'd start with him at home and do the ttouches on him every day if you can for 10-15mins so not long Put your flat hand on his shoulder and imagine a clock face under your hand and you're at 6o'clock. Gently move the skin round the clock face going clockwise and only moving the skin .. do a circle and a quarter so as your hand traces thro 6oclock gently take the pressure off so when you get between 8 and 9 of your imaginary clock your hand is just resting on the skin then slide gently down his body to the next spot .. don't go far and then do another circle and a quarter .. work down his body then do the other side ... if he moves away then either lighten your pressure or deepen it slightly till he settles .. if he still moves do some of Jo's zigzags ( ) as they're another good ttouch to use. Do small circles & 1/4s down his legs, use your fingertips to do circles & 1/4s on his feet and pads then you can do the same round his face Like Jo says mouthwork can make a phenomenal change in a dog but you can start with ttouches round his mouth and round the base of his ears.

If he's really getting OTT you could try a bodywrap under his coat and I always use a harness with a double ended lead as we find dogs are less reactive if you take the pressure off their neck

TTouch relaxes dogs so when there are loose dogs you should be able to do some earwork to reduce his tension tho he may not stop doing it immediately .. it means he's more receptive to conventional training such as 'leave it' or 'come' and walk in the other direction ,,, his confidence should increase so he'll begin to tolerate more than he does now and you can build on that - how quickly he progresses depends on him and you and if his confidence gets knocked back but don't worry you'll get there My Charlie never used to growl he'd just pile in and one of the first improvements I noticed was he could cope a fraction longer before flying at the other dog then he began to growl yyyiiipppeeee

I'm pretty sure there are TTouch demos on You Tube and I learn better when I can see someone doing the ttouches than just reading it so have a look

Any questions please ask

Julie x

[jodav]

I do sympathise Tinar, it's not easy when you can't get to the bottom of why your dog is behaving differently. From what you say, Daley seems to have been affected by Sonia being attacked. My experience is that Paddy my male dog is always very aware of what Tracy my female dog is doing on a walk ie where she is sniffing, what she is watching or joining in barking with her when she sees another dog. Basically I think that even though he has a good communication with me, he is more influenced by her out on a walk. I've tried to do a lot of work with him when out on his own which is a bit like BAT - see a dog at a safe distance, as soon as he makes his own decision to look away from the dog/back at me, reward

You say that Daley ignores the pack after a few yards of running and yet initially the pack helped him out. Having watched Tracy run in a pack there is often a lot of highly charged energy so this possibly putting Daley off as he is getting frustrated at not keeping up. Maybe one or two other dogs only, get them to playfully chase you and reward with some high value treats? In all honesty I can say that the pack can teach my Paddy more about good manners in 20 minutes than I can in 20 weeks Hope with the Ttouch etc Daley starts to feel happier

Jo x

[tinar]

Mar 31, 2013 14:37:07 GMT -5 jodav said:

I do sympathise Tinar, it's not easy when you can't get to the bottom of why your dog is behaving differently. From what you say, Daley seems to have been affected by Sonia being attacked. My experience is that Paddy my male dog is always very aware of what Tracy my female dog is doing on a walk ie where she is sniffing, what she is watching or joining in barking with her when she sees another dog. Basically I think that even though he has a good communication with me, he is more influenced by her out on a walk. I've tried to do a lot of work with him when out on his own which is a bit like BAT - see a dog at a safe distance, as soon as he makes his own decision to look away from the dog/back at me, reward

You say that Daley ignores the pack after a few yards of running and yet initially the pack helped him out. Having watched Tracy run in a pack there is often a lot of highly charged energy so this possibly putting Daley off as he is getting frustrated at not keeping up. Maybe one or two other dogs only, get them to playfully chase you and reward with some high value treats? In all honesty I can say that the pack can teach my Paddy more about good manners in 20 minutes than I can in 20 weeks Hope with the Ttouch etc Daley starts to feel happier

Jo x

Thanks Jo,

You've really hit the spot in your description of Daley's behaviour, Daley's not big on treats when out on a walk, and being muzzled it's hard to reward at the right moment. At the moment he's getting lots of fuss and attention for good behaviours, and gentle correction and distraction when he starts to react. This seems to be working well.

In fact the muzzle seems to be having a much more positive effect than I expected on how he is behaving, and it's easier for me as I'm not fretting about him accidentally catching someone in in enthusiasm.

Thank you all for your reassurance, I'm more than happy to work with my hounds to help them when needed, but I was beginning to feel overwhelmed by Daley's responses and reactions.

Tina x

[julies]

Hi Tina

That's great that you're beginning to see an improvement In my experience it's better to try to read the situation and distract him before he feels overwhelmed and feels he has to kick off ... not easy but if you spot another dog running and see Daley begin to stare, if his head goes up, his body stiffens, his stride shortens or any other sign he's not completely relaxed about then I always suggest people just ask their dog to do something .. turn, do an arc, watch 'me' for a few strides then tell him to 'relax' or 'ok' to release him then you can reward him and build on the good, positive behaviour and responses rather than use punishment/correction when he's only trying to say he's frightened and 'go away' (which of course works so he thinks he'll do it more often). I tell people their dogs are allowed to look at others otherwise how are they to learn they're ok and safe but the owners need to read them well and distract them before their dog has to react ....

I love muzzles and it helps us to relax as well as warn other people our dogs are not ok, keeps Daley and the others safe too

Sounds like Daley is doing really well

Julie x

[dylansdad]

This sounds almost exactly like Skye (formerly Merle, of this parish)

We had to take a leap of faith in her and, when we were in a big open space with 2 soppy retrievers (with owner permission and her muzzle securely in place) we let her go on a 10M halter

The transformation was almost instant - she was brilliant - she is now happy off lead for most of the walk and she has the freedom to meet new dogs in her own way/time/terms

I firmly believe that her anxious/aggression is due to the fact that she feels trapped on lead and the only thing she can do is 'react'

After a week of this, she is still quite barky & snappy when she's on lead and meets other dogs off lead - but she's definitely getting better - we use high value treats (held near her nose, not immediately given) and squeaky toys to distract her

Good Luck

Allan