Nervous aggression - help for Merle

[dylansdad]

Hi all

As many will know we're fostering Merle. She's great (if very submissive) in the house and walks beautifully with our other two. She has started to play and seems to really enjoy hooning around our garden with a ball. She is, however terrified of other dogs we meet at the park - particularly if it's off lead.

Originally, she would be very quiet, stand very still head & tail down and you could see her trembling
Later she progressed (?) to low growling then snarling
Now she's found her voice and is barking
If any dog gets close she'll launch herself at it snapping and snarling (we keep her muzzle on & she has a harness)
Other dog walkers are starting to give us a wide berth which doesn't help as she needs socialisation

I've noted some interesting characteristics

If myself and the other dog owner can intervene, she calms down and more often that not we can then all walk together (perhaps not really close, but getting better)

A sharp "AH" will often stop her if we catch her in time

Off lead dogs are a real problem and she won't settle

More than one dog is also a problem

On subsequent meetings, she can be either just a bit growly or full on death machine again

I'm absolutely convinced that this is insecurity and that she can get over this - Following Lisa's advice we keep her to familiar walks at the same time - which means she encounters the same other dogs - however we do try to avoid situations where she can get overwhelmed and as often as we can we'll be a good distance away from other dogs.

She's on 3 drops of rescue remedy per day and I'm probably going to get her a dap collar or maybe some spray on a bandanna - (not sure how good these are outdoors)

I'm also looking at J&J Greenwood website for a socialisation class

I know love, consistency & patience will prevail, but Merliegirlie needs help before this fear aggression becomes established behaviour

[Lisa]

Its all down to confidence as I said at the moment she is feeling very out of sorts. It might be best for the next few days to street walk her and give her time to settle in keeping her away from lots of other dogs or areas that have lots of other dogs in them especially off lead dogs. I still wont walk my on lead dogs there because it can prompt real stress issues and frustration teemed with not being able to chase/or run away.

Any encounter with dogs needs to be positive and every encounter she has that isnt positive and leads her to react will make her worse and it will escalate. Walking needs to be done parallallel never walked face on to another dog and at least 10 ft distance between you and any other dog with Merle on the opposite side to you so she isnt actually passing the dog nearside. You need to use an upbeat voice, keep walking, shoulders out and before she starts to bark monitor her body language. If she stiffens or lifts her tail twitches her ears get in with a LEAVE IT then. If she does lots of upbeat good girl good girl. Find dogs to walk with that are calm starting at 10ft away and then gradually move in a bit closer as she settles.

I will ring you this evening or tomorrow to go through it better. As said though everytime she gets allowed to react it will make it worse and harder to break so try to keep her away from environments with off lead dogs running lose and lots of dogs to encounter.

[julies]

She's frightened .. like Lisa says and slowly very slowly ... do it at Merle's pace, only progress when she can cope with what you're doing which can take weeks, months, years ....

Check out TTouch which will help build her comfidence and give you tools to help you both be relaxed when things go wrong .. we use a harness like you but with a double ended lead which helps 'balance' the dog ..

The more often she reacts at other dogs and they go away the more sher'll think what a successful idea that is and will do it all the more .. you need to make sure she doesn't have to react like that ... not easy.I'm sure Lisa has given you loads more advice

Good luck with Merle

J x

[futuramafan]

I have the same problem and it does get you down. I have tried lots of things over the past nine months (dog socialising classes, two behaviourists, thundershirt, various collars, had the vet give her a physical exam in case she had an underlying physical problem) but I have to say nothing has helped and as she damaged my hand recently lunging at a dog I can only walk her on a canny collar. It works in terms of being able to control her (much better than the halti I have found) but it doesn't deal with the underlying problem. The behaviourist just keeps telling me to expose her to other dogs but crikey that is easier than done! I have found a park where she is safe to run (enclosed and always empty) and she seems calmer after that. I'm sorry I can't give you any really good advice but you are not alone!!!

[futuramafan]

Ps I have purchased the ttouch book and will let you know how that goes.

[emmajane]

I have a fear reactive foster dog (some of you may have seen my posts on him before) and so I totally sympathise with you. Seamus has improved over the last 2 years he has been here - going from reacting crazily at the sight of anything that could possibly be a dog even while it was a dot on the horizon, to being able to (just about) cope in a class environment (not something I do often with him).
What I will say is that a lot of the time when a dog looks like it is coping with other dogs being close (I use the term close to mean closer than the dog would really want) he isn't actually OK with the situation and is just putting up with it to either earn a reward, or even be like an ostrich (if I don't look at it isn't there). These situations are not good learning situations, but are OK to keep your dog from reacting while you get out of a situation (like dogs appearing when you didn't expect them).

I've been doing some BAT setups with Seamus with the help of a friend and her dog, and despite all the work I've put in with him he still chooses to stay about 3/4 of a football field away from the other dog. He will go closer without kicking off, but he isn't happy at all - and this is in a safe, quiet environment that he is used to with only one dog to worry about. I just thought this might show you how far away you might need to be to have Merle totally comfortable with other dogs. She needs to be comfortable enough to be really able to check out the other dog without getting fixated on it so you can reward the good/calm behaviour.

It is critical that you manage your environment so that she doesn't get put in a situation she feels unsafe and therefore gets chance to put into practice gobbing off at other dogs, the more she does it the more it becomes ingrained and therefore the more difficult it is to stop. With fearful dogs a lot also depends on their state of mind - if they are already anxious then their ability to cope becomes severely compromised which is why somedays they will walk happily past a dog and the next day they act like they want to kill it.

Hopefully Merle is just a little stressed about all the changes and once she feels more comfortable she will improve really quickly.

[gazer]

Lots of good stuff there Emma
Solo can be fear aggressive, over time I've learned what makes him unsettled and when this is about to happen.
If we meet a problem early on in a walk, then chances are he is hyped and unsettled 'til we get home.
Keeping him calm and happy is what I try and aim for, if I see someone coming along with a dog, I reroute if possible to keep that comfortable distance between them, keeping me between Solo and the other dog, regardless of distance we are apart.
He wants to feel safe and secure and I try to provide that for him.

We did socialisation classes ages ago, he did ok in the hall, but as we came out the first dog he saw got a terrible mouthful.
I persevered for several weeks but to be honest he never really seemed happy with other dogs so close to him.

I hope Merle improves, just take it slowly and don't expect too much from her.  Keep to those relaxing quiet walks where she can enjoy herself and build her confidence, take your cues from her, if she starts to look worried, get out of the situation before it escalates.

It's not easy, my other 2 lurchers are also reactive for different reasons.  Our walks are rarely boring, but we do have incident free times, when the dogs and I can just relax and enjoy.   Days like that make it all worthwhile.

Good luck and to Merle

[dylansdad]

thanks for the advice we seem to have a long road ahead

[julies]

My Gap lurcher Charlie was very dog (real dog not lurcher or terrier) aggressive when I got him and I must admit there were lots of times I wondered what the **** I'd got He was 5 or 6 so well established in his fear of other dogs and a very strong boy He would go thro his signals of not being OK in an instance and it took me a while to realise that he DID give signals and not just pile in I think some of his behaviour when he met off lead dogs was Bull Terrier playing ... really rough wrestling and lots of noises and froth Gulp but not acceptable (he came from a home with a Bullie apparently)

I used a harness with a double ended lead which meant I could hold him and control him plus in TTouch we find dogs are less reactive if you take the pressure off the neck and head, I used the TTouch bodywork (The TTouches) the bodywraps (I didn't use a Thundershirt but it's worth trying) as well as the conventional training of not getting him too close to other dogs, not allowing other loose dogs to come up to him and to use high value treats when I was at training classes to reward/distract him.
I was quick to read him .. and like I say his signals were zilch .. just a hardening of his eyes, no growling and he'd lunge so I would be really careful and probably sometimes moving him away before he got worried but better to err on the side of caution. I might stay in a class for 5 or 10 minutes then he'd have had enough and we'd go for a nice relaxing walk so he could let of steam .. interesting when we went to dog shows he'd then have to have a mad gallop round my horses field I guess to let off tension ...
I'd always have him in a bodywrap tho I found that for him the facewrap made a huge difference and I used that more.. it's literally elastic in a figure of eight that sits gently on his muzzle, twists under his chin and goes behind his ears .. we find dogs that use their mouths a lot often benefit from the face wrap - it's never tight, just a reminder they're using their mouth

Because he was used to the ttouches I could do those when he was stressed/hyper and calm him down or if there was a dog approaching ... it gave me confidence cos I knew I had tools to help so I was braver and then he was braver

I was really really careful where I exercised him so I didn't have any loose dogs coming at him .. I still don't exercise the dogs in public parks but now if we're in the woods and he sees another dog even if he's off lead he'll just stand still and will look at me - I call him back, give him a treat and put him on the lead .. you can start getting that when they're on the lead and if you see another dog just call their name and if they acknowledge you give them a treat and lots of praise so they learn to look to you .. then you can call them or just get their attention.
For me the beauty of TTouch is that you can use it with any other training method if onyl to get the dog to relax .. then they learn rather than just react ...if you want to know anything ask me or 7lurchers if she's around

Charlie has gob smacked me- last year we did some Kennel Club obedience shows and he was absolutely fabtastic .. he listened to me, he coped with doing a stay close amongst strange dogs (I felt sick all the time) and the best thing ever .. we walked with some dogs he'd not met before and after 30 mins was off lead with them, runnning about, sniffing nice smells with all the others ... I could have cried he was having such a great dog time

Julie

[futuramafan]

Hi

Just a quick update you might find interesting. Molly has been away with us for two weeks in Norfolk and was in kennels for a few days whilst we were down there. The owner took her into her own house as we had said she has fear aggression issues. I was fretting all weekend but when my husband went to pick her up she was playing beautifully with a German shepherd and was totally ignoring cats! The kennel owners loved her and one was also a behaviourist who spent some time with Molly and said she is not aggressive just not sure how to meet and greet other dogs. She also went on the beach and made friends with a whole variety of dogs. I am sure she will still play up when she sees a dog whilst on the lead but this is real progress!

[dylansdad]

Great news for Molly

Merle (now Skye) is much improved

She still gets agitated when on lead meeting other dogs (particularly if they're offlead) but we're definitely making progress.
Offlead she's much better and happily meets, greets & plays. ;D

[jodav]

Excellent news for Molly and Skye - long may they enjoy other dog company It's nail-biting and you have to take a long hard gulp before you do it but for some dogs, mixing in with other dogs off-lead, works wonders (with all the safety precautions like muzzles etc) I think I said somewhere else on a thread, the pack can teach my dog Paddy more about socialising/ good greeting manners in 20 minutes than I can in 20 days/weeks Seeing him run around with other dogs is special but for him, little dogs take his memory straight back to the track so anything piglet-sized is way off limits.

Jo