Dog aggression - advice please

[heatherjulia]

Hi all

Hope you can offer some advice as I've been reading and reading up on this, and asking for advice from different people but am still not sure of the best way to deal with this problem.

We adopted our ex-racer Bobby about 4 months ago. He is 3 and a half, and retired almost a year ago.

He's a very sweet dog. Affectionate, friendly - LOVES people and is no trouble at all in the house.

The issue is with other dogs. When we walk him, 9 times out of 10 when we see another dog he will freeze and stare at it intently. He completely shuts off from us, will not obey us or move a muscle. If the other dog comes close to him, (ie walks past us on the pavement) he will lunge and try to bite it. We think from observing his behaviour, it's due to fear. We expected he would want to chase / catch small fluffy dogs, but this happens with all dogs, eg calm labradors etc. I'm assuming it's because he has never been near other breeds before and doesn't know what to make of them.

Sometimes if the dog does not come near him, (ie is on the other side of the road) he will still freeze and stare at it, and will stay rooted to the spot long after it is out of sight.

The RGT kennel where we adopted him from suggested squirting him in the face with a water pistol to snap him out of the behaviour, as nothing we had tried will get him to move or stop fixating on the other dog. But when we tried this, he was so 'in the zone', he didn't even realise he had been sprayed! It had no effect whatsoever.

A dog behaviourist suggested we take him to group obedience classes to socialise him. I was worried by this and said 'won't he be a complete nightmare, as he'll constantly try to attack the other dogs?'. She said he would but if we persevered he would gradually get past it.

Can I ask, do you all think this is a good idea, or not? I guess my concern is that I don't want to stress him out by putting him in a situation where he is extremely anxious. But, I don't know what else to do.

We also tried him with a dog walker who took him out and met up with another walker with a very calm lab so they could try walking them side by side, but she said for the entire walk, Bobby was constantly lunging at the lab.

Has anyone else dealt with this kind of behaviour?

He loves going out and is a pleasure to walk when there are no other dogs around, but as soon as we encounter one, he completely changes. I'd love to be able to resolve this and make him realise there's nothing to fear!

All advice appreciated!

[nataliesian]

On the train so just a quick suggestion that you see if you can get some time with Jim greenwood- a fabulous behaviourist.

In the mean time if you havent already i would strongly suggest that you make sure he's muzzled and maybe get on of the coats which warn people he's nervous ( or u could make on yourself). It can help a great deal to stand between your dog and other dogs, ie don't let your dog get in front of you and make sure your dog can see that you have seem the other dog. But If you can distract your dog before he sees another dog- easier said than done I know and keep his attention. Thats more effective Perhaps try a favourite toy treats or similar. But this must be before hes reacted. Only reward him for doing something which is nearer to what you want. And really for for it in terms o praise when he doesI've found it helpfull to build up exposure gradually in the past, both in terms of frequency and distance from other dogs.I'm talking opposit end of a field at least.then try the distraction. Other people do advocate the flooding approach ie taking him to behaviour classes and hoping eventually that he stops reacting but This is known to be very stressful. Plus I really believe you need to earn a rescue dogs trust. I don't think this helps with that.

As a last resort their are sirens you can use as a distracter just as the behaviour starts but again I prefer not too.

Beat of luck and do try Jim he's fabulous !

Ps I hope Sarah sees this he's done wonders with solo :0)

[allthehounds]

Hi, I don't really have any advice to give I'm afraid although I'm sure lots of people will be along soon to help you out! I just wanted to say I'm sorry for the trouble you're having with Bobby and although it is a really horrible problem to have you're definitely not alone with this one. Our boy Ernie who we rescued when he was just 20 months old and is now approaching his 8th birthday is very similar to your boy. Over the years he has got a little bit better in that after walking alongside another dog for 5 minutes or so he'll calm down and be ok but in the first instance of seeing another dog of any shape or size (except greyhounds who he's fine with strangely) he'll bark, scream, lunge at the dog and if he wasn't muzzled he'd also try and bite us or bite his lead! Experience has lead us just to avoid other dogs wherever possible and make sure he's always muzzled when out walking. I'm sure with some good advice you'll be able to get Bobby used to other dogs but for us unfortunately it's something that we've just got used to but it can be embarrassing when we see another dog and Ernie starts spinning about and screaming!! Good luck with Bobby's training and I hope that all his good points more than make up for his dislike of other dogs.

[Flaperoo]

I agree Jim is excellent

When we lived in London we took Peggy (who was deadly and pulled and lunged at everything ) to a socialisaion class. We had a few attempts until we found a trainer, and others in the class who were prepared to put up with her agressive behaviour. This exposure over many months did calm her down and after a couple of years we could even walk her unmuzzled. She ended up ok with dogs that were calm and all dogs on lead but any dog offlead running about remained a challenge for her , although by this stage not agressive just lunging and pulling. We carried on regardless. Peggy died aged 11 in September and was never walked off lead or anywhere that was not surely enclosed offlead.

As she grew older both she and I loved the bond we had. The others could run and play but I often told Peggy she was so special and that's why she always walked with me and I would never let her away from my side

On a brighter note I have a dog who came to me having killed another. He is muzzled even to go out the back door for a wee, but on lead in public he now walks calmly by myside unless an offlead dog gets in his face.

I agree with the behaviourist, I agree with the socialisation classes, I also do not think you should avoid walking him when other dogs are around.

When on walks only reward when he is to heal by your side. Our most recent Greyhound Redge fought my partner for 2 hours recently, just so overwhelmed by the number of dogs running about. Since then (about 3 weeks) I have taken him out every day by himself just doing heal work with me. The ONLY time he gets a treat is when he walks to heal and does not pull or lunge. Make it a high value treat so it becomes a high value reward. Redge (who was straight from the track two months ago) is by no means good yet - but he is better.

Whilst doing this always keep him on a very short lead and slightly behind you. I put my arms behind my back as this helps to ensure he never gets in front of me and ALWAYS muzzle. Greyhounds are used to muzzles and all of mine who need to wear it all the time see it as a reward. With Oafy now all I have to do is rattle his muzzle and he comes bouncing up, pushes his nose straight up so I ca get his muzzle on and he can have a lovely walk.

The final thing I would say and this is probably the hardest part - if you are anxious about meeting other dogs Bobby will be supersensitive to this and you will transmit this down the lead , reinforcing his fear .

So for him to become calm and not bothered so do you. This will establish you as the pack leader and he will not have to worry about other dogs because you are the boss and you will take care of him whatever else is going on.

Good Luck to you and the very loveable Bobby and we would love to hear how you get on .

Maryx

[julies]

Hi

In my experience this is normal fear aggression from ex-racing greyhounds .. they have rarely had anything to do with other breeds and are a submissive breed themselves (all the fighting's been bred out of them) so many of the usual dog 'I'm not ok' signals are very small or even fleeting so easy to miss .. in my experience and others may have different experiences I try to build their confidence up by using Tellington TTouch, that's the bodywork (TTouches) and useful 'tools' such as the TTouch Bodywrap, the facewrap or the Thundershirt. I try not to continually reinforce their fear and scarey experiences so don't walk where there are lots of loose dogs who cannot be recalled by their owners so they rush up to my scared hound and convince him that - whatever this thing is - it's very frightening ... and if this happens every time you take him out he'll probably start either not wanting to go out or be very tense and on high alert for the whole walk.

What you usually see is your dog starts maybe looking, then their eyes stare, body tenses, head and neck go upwards, stride goes shorter and whole body tries to look bigger - all trying to scare away the other dog (even if its on a lead itself) ... if this body posturing doesn't work then they may (rarely ) growl, but they may lick their lips and then usually launch into barking, lunging, leaping 6' upwards, spinning, biting leads etc etc Your dog may be too scared to eat or simply too scared to move so freezes ... or too scared to turn it's back on this other dog in case it comes closer

I personally don't like punishing them with water sprays .. I prefer positive reward based training so I have my dogs in harnesses with a double ended lead attached to two bits of the harness (another TTouch 'tool' ) I start off by teaching 'leave it' with treats so when my dog sees something scarey and begins to react I tell them to 'leave it' (you need to be quick to 'get in' before their response escalates and you're fire fighting cos they're too aroused/scared to really listen) and I reward with very high value treats any hint he's responding ... an ear twitch etc etc and I would also ask him to turn away (all at the same time and quickly) using the harness to 'encourage' him if need be so I can reward that too and its positive not a punishment.
I'd find another calm greyhound to walk with if poss and still not let other breeds come close, you need to find the distance at which your dog can cope with looking at other breeds and not feel he has to react or be scared ..I'd do lots of work with letting him watch other dogs at that safe distance, doing TTouch earwork or similar to calm him then I'd ask him to move on before he remembers he frightened and starts to react .. oh and reward him for being brave My lurcher was very dog aggressive and I taught him that if he saw a loose dog I'd say Leave it, he should look at me and I'd give him a high value treat, when he was off lead - and saw a loose dog (gulp ) he still would look to me and I don't usually have to call him, he'll come back and I'll put him on his lead and reward him He's now meeting quite a few off lead dogs and not flattening them - even mooching about with them happily My greyhound has eventually learnt that she's not allowed to chase cats nor bite me or Charlie - I tell her to 'leave it' and she'll walk on.. like has been said muzzles are great and best used all the time he's out .. me and Charlie like muzzles too LOL

If you want to get him used to other breeds find a nice laid back dog and go for walks but your dog and the other are on the outside of the two people walking them, you'll have to walk apart as well if he's that reactive to other dogs .. parrallel walking is great ... keep at it till your dog isn't reacting at all to the other then get a bit closer and closer - this can take weeks or months .. when the people are close you can put the other breed in the middle of the people so your dog has you between him and the other dog but move back far apart and wait till your dogs relaxed before you move closer .. the end bit is walking the two dogs side by side but again move apart at first.

Training classes can be great but I think outdoor ones are better- greys often are scared of slippy floors, the classes are often in echoey halls and other dogs are too close but outside you can go as far away to watch as your dog can cope with tho I must admit that I've found a nice indoor one in a purpose built dog building .. it has loads of room, small classes and trainers who listen rather than treat my greyhound like another breed .. as they all have gundogs that would have been interesting LOL.; If you do go to an all breed training class be careful not to try to do too much with him before he is truly settled and confident - we've had greys brought back to us completely traumatised by other breeds as people - with the best of intentions have taken them to all breed tarining but made them walk too close to other dogs and scared the living daylights out of the greys

If you're near Birmingham I run a training class for greyhounds and lurchers on the southside of Bham and you're welcome to bring your dog along - just PM me and I'll send you some info

Best wishes

Julie

[jodav]

Hi heatherjulia

First of all it's great that you have adopted your lovely hound Bobby and that you are so willing to research and eager to help him out A lot of us speak from experience on this subject so don't feel alone! I agree with everything that has already been said - TTouch is an amazing way to bond with your hound and encourage him to respond to you when out on a walk. High value treats will reinforce the verbal cues as has been said. Personally I use 'Watch me' before the approach of another dog and obvious signs of tension in my dog, encouraging a turn of the head and no staring at the other dog I've also found my dog to be way more reactive on home territory and when another unknown dog gives intense eye-contact to him. He is completely different when a dog just walks by minding its own business ;D. Distance apart is also key.

One last point; organised group walks of sighthounds are very useful for socialisation and confidence building. Have a look at local RGT website for dates and good luck.

Jo

[samburns]

Hello and welcome to the forum

Congratulations on adopting Bobby

You might find this thread helpful:

greyhoundgap.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=New&action=display&thread=69319

As others have said, greyhounds almost always react very differently to their own kind, if you let us know where you are it may be there is someone in your area with a calm greyhound you could meet with for walks.....it can feel quite isolating when most people veer away from you when you have a reactive dog

[lucyrw]

Hello!

Our Jackson is quite similar to your Bobby, when we got him 4 months ago he was very dog-aggressive, freezing whenever we encountered other dogs and snapping at them when they got too close. He's much better now, after we took very high value treats to distract him, and changed direction lots when in sight of another dog so that he had to focus on us to see where to move next, treating him when he gave us eye contact. When he froze we stood still until the threat had passed, and called his name until he responded, eventually he understood that nothing bad was going to happen. Stepping in front of him between him and the other dog and then walking on also worked wonders, as he realised we were in charge and followed our lead. He still snaps at other dogs when they get round his face, but as hes muzzle this isn't a huge problem, we always tell other owners from a distance that he's a rescue and isn't sure of other dogs, 9 times out of 10 they put their dog on the lead til they've passed us.

Keep persevering,, I'm sure it'll get better as he trusts you more and more.

Lucy

[twiggyandsarah]

Jan 21, 2013 12:12:56 GMT -5 nataliesian said:

Ps I hope Sarah sees this he's done wonders with solo :0)

Thanks Nat!

My lurcher, Solo, has a multitude of fear aggression issues! He was in Dogs Trust for over 2 years before I got him, and he'd been in an abusive home before that. Although he was constantly with other dogs he was still under-socialised. I think one or two of his kennel mates had in fact attacked him, so he was naturally suspicious of others dogs.

He's been with me for a year and two months now, and while he is still not fully confident around other dogs, he is much better than he was. As you have described with Bobby, Solo would freeze and stare, or start barking and leaping like a mad thing at other dogs. No treat, even very high value ones, would get his attention. I personally would not recommend the water pistol. Although it may seem harmless I feel that it is unpleasant (how would you like it? I wouldn't!) and as such adds one more bad thing to an already stressful situation for Bobby.

The most important thing I think I can say is that it will take time. Lots of time and lots of patience. Start off by taking him to very quite areas for walks, of going out at times of day when there is no-one else around. You may come across one or two other dogs but at least it won't be a constant risk. This might also help you relax so you can practise a few techniques. Try to exude relaxed confidence with your body language, eg. walk at a steady pace, don't slow down if you see another dog, keep walking nice and steady so Bobby doesn't sense your trepidation.

Gradually build up to busier areas or busier times of day, but do this slowly. If it takes weeks of going to the quiet places and only having to face one or two dogs then so be it. Eventually you and Bobby will get more confident and more relaxed about handling the situation.

As others have said, give lots of praise when you get the right reaction, ignore when you get the one you don't want, always muzzle to be on the safe side. A behaviourist might help, and a class might, but you can only try it and see.

To give you hope for the future - Solo can still be quite reactive on lead, but off lead in open spaces he now loves to run around with other dogs. This would never have been possible a year ago. Now we can go to the beach, let him off lead, and not only will he ignore most other dogs, he will even have fun playing chase with ones who can keep up with him!

Give it time. As his trust in you continues to grow, as will his confidence. There's no quick fix, but if you are consistent and patient things will improve!

[heatherjulia]

Wow, what fantastic responses - thank you all so much for taking the time to reply.

There's a lot here that we can try. We're going to take him on a greyhound walk at the end of February and we've also found a local class that we might try, and will see how he reacts and whether we want to do that regularly.

Julie - wish we were nearer Birmingham so we could come to your class! We're down in Hertfordshire.

Thanks again to you all, your advice really is appreciated. We'll take it all on board and I'll let you know how we get on!

[julies]

Hiya

never mind but keep asking us all There's so much experience on this forum it's wonderful and most of us have 'been there'

Best wishes

Julie

[marianfl]

Hello!

Just to echo what others have said. We have had Mary for 18 months now and have had similar issues. She still sometimes growls at other on lead dogs (for no apparent reason; sometimes there's no reaction, other times she is very fierce!) but I have got a lot better at exuding confidence and telling her to 'leave it'! (Which she does!)

I thoroughly recommend training classes. I have been going for over a year now, and they have been so beneficial, as they have allowed Mary to socialise in a controlled environment with understanding owners and well behaved dogs. Our classes are held outside and are very well organised. I don't think she would have made such progress without them.