Completely terrified of the moon

[ailsa]

I wish I could laugh about Archie being so terrified of something as ridiculous as the moon, but it's become an enormous problem!

A few of you may remember I posted a while ago that Archie had developed anxiety about getting in the car. That has improved vastly, and we had a really good period of two or three weeks where he seemed back to his old self. However, since the nights have started to draw in - and with it being so clear and the moon so bright - he's just beyond terrified. The other night I tried to take him to the park down the road, and he was spinning and pulling so hard on his lead I was afraid he'd slip his collar, so I just had to turn round and let him haul me back home. He also let out this sound - somewhere between a whine and a yelp - that was just pure terror.

Given that he only retired from racing in February, it's quite possible he's never seen the moon, so I can begin to understand why he's so freaked out by it - but we feel completely helpless. When it's something 'physical' we feel we can do something about it, but what on earth do we do about the moon?!

It's now developed to the stage where he's even afraid to go out in broad daylight - moon or no moon. This morning, he was lying on his bed, trembling like mad, before I'd even got his collar and lead. I feel like I'm torturing him every time I take him out for a wee.

Our problem is that we live in a ground floor flat with no garden, so he has to be taken around the block every few hours to relieve himself, and as a result he's now associating his collar and lead with fear, rather than fun.

To compound things, he also has a little bit of space aggression, and because he stays clamped to his duvet when we call him, it's tricky to get his collar on because he just growls at us - and I'm pretty sure he knows it makes me slightly nervous. I was in tears this afternoon because he simply wouldn't move. Half an hour later he got up for a drink, so I just grabbed his collar when he'd finished and took him out, but by that time it was nearly dark and the moon was high in the sky - and extremely bright - and he nearly pulled my arm out of its socket trying to get back inside.

I feel I'm pretty calm and firm but gentle with him when we're out, but his fear is such it doesn't seem to give him any assurance - and we are at a loss to know what to do about it.

We have been in touch with a dog behaviourist, but she can't see us for several weeks, so we're desperate for guidance in the meantime. We can't just pray for cloudy nights and new moons!

So sorry for the long post, but I would very much appreciate any hints. We just want our lovely boy to feel secure and happy.

[Nettie]

I was going to suggest you let him be for a bit but since you live in a flat that is not an option. Are you giving him anything to keep him calm, rescue remedy in his water for instance. Actually, I think that perhaps investing in a DAP collar might be a good idea to help take the edge of his fear and this will make it easier for you to put in some training. I guess you could try clicker training while you're outside to keep his attention on you and therefore distract him from the things he's scared of. If you haven't clicker trained this is a good place to start:

www.canisclickertraining.com/

Sign up for the free course to see if it will work for you both, if its something he enjoys then I can recommend buying the book.

Good luck.

[ailsa]

Thank you Nettie! He has had a DAP diffuser in his room for several weeks now, but perhaps adding a collar might help. He has been prescribed diazepam to help him deal with bonfire night, and the vet suggested doing a trial run so we can gauge the effect it has. He was prescribed two tablets per dosage, so I gave him just one last night to see if it would take the edge off, but it had absolutely zilch effect. I'll try two tomorrow night and see what happens (we're going out tonight, so not appropriate to try it this evening) - although obviously it's not something I want to rely on long term!

Clicker training hadn't occurred to me, but it sounds like a really good suggestion. I'll definitely look into it.

I must be the only person who's relieved that the weather is beginning to cloud over!

[Aoj]

Ailsa, just a minor suggestion but I presume from your post that you take his collar off? Why not leave it on? Not a total solution I know, but it will take at least one stressful event out of the equation.

[ailsa]

Oct 13, 2008 5:28:41 GMT -5 Aoj said:

Ailsa, just a minor suggestion but I presume from your post that you take his collar off? Why not leave it on? Not a total solution I know, but it will take at least one stressful event out of the equation.

Yes, I'd been thinking the same thing. We've been leaving his house collar off because it wore a bald patch on his throat, but that's small fry compared with this problem so I'll take you up on your suggestion and leave it on.

[vickyb]

We've been using collars from Helen (helen7)and not had any problems with bald bits. I do take them off just at night but I doubt they'd rub even if not.
Regarding the diazepam, if the vet was ok about it you could use it short term so he (hopefully) doesn't care quite so much about the big scary ball in the sky while you get the clicker trg underway so that he is then focused on you as you reduce the diazepam.
Another thought is what's he like in the car? Trix our little non pointy is very upset by fireworks, the sh*ts round us set them off in the day as well so she gets reluctant to go out so I often pop her in the car and just drive the 2 mins to the field (looks so lazy ) but she seems happier once she is there rather than on the walking bit. Don't know whether that would be appropriate for you. Do you think it could help to get him used to it from the safely of the car, although I guess you'd struggle then to get him out for a walk, just a thought whether somewhere new might carry less association with the fear he feels as he steps out of the door.
Have you talked to the vet about it as I seem to recall publicity a few years ago about a new drug for dogs which was more the type of thing we would take for anxiety rather than the older type like diazepam for dogs with anxiety issues. Again I think it was meant to be used short term with other strategies which would help the issue long term (not sure I explained that too well)
Does he come to you for tit bits? can you give him these as you gradually move nearer to the door until he moves happily towards it for them but do it when you're not taking him out as well as when you are so he never knows which you're doing. Does he like toys? can you get him to play with you so you get him off his bed to play not just to walk?
Good luck,
Vicky

[kris]

Does he have any local dog friends - or can you get one?
My old fella wags is alsways braver with another dog to take the lead.
Perhaps walk in the light to get used to each other then go out at dusk and returning in the dark?
Watch the dog whisperer on living tv too - he is great at explaining confident handling.

As for the bed thing - I have a little of that with charlie - my new one. He seems to think that he should protect his bit of space and wont go wee wee in the rain.
Solution - Foot under bed and lift to hand - hand lifts bed - out comes dog with out touching or you leaning down to him - viola!
He is realising when I say wee - we all go out together - no arguments- oh and you get tripe sticks when you get back in..

[Deleted]

What about using a fleecy harness & leaving it on him for the time being, if you get one of the ones that are fleecy around the girth it will be comfy for him. You will be able to clip his lead on safely & it will give a bit more security when out & about, perhaps leave his lead on of he is just lieing his bed so you can just pick the lead up & go?

It's such an unusual problem & with living in a flat makes it more difficult because otherwise I would also say don't take him out for now.

I'm thinking that he needs to associate going outside with nice things. Is he very food orientated, does he enjoy his morning & evening meals, if he does you could try taking his food bowl out with you on walks & feeding him small portions of his meals outside? Or does he like toys, could you get a very special toy that he loves, but he is only allowed to have it when he is outside?

[bluegreyhound]

Fanta seems a bit scared of the dark, but luckily we have two dogs, and Eva is fairly confident in the dark, so that helps.

Eva did go through a stage of being very unwilling to go for walks, before we got Fanta (and this was after about a year of being really keen on walks). Not sure if she got scared when we got caught in a thunderstorm on an early warning walk. We live in a flat too, so walks are compulsory for toilet breaks. She has become much more willing to go for walks since we got Fanta, so sometimes two dogs does seem to help.

Eva can be hard to get out of bed (she is rather lazy) but treats help, or failing that tipping her bed over (as suggested above) normally gets her on her feet.

As this is your first winter with Archie perseverance might be the key. If he's not been out in the dark much before it's understandable he finds it scary, but hopefully this will improve. The more fun you can make outings - with treats, encouragement etc - the better.

Also, a harness is a very good idea. Fanta wears one on walks, and it's very useful as it means I know he can't slip his lead.

Good luck.

[ailsa]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply - it's much appreciated.

Things are improving slowly. Archie's still not wild about leaving the flat (in fact, he shakes so much you can hear his claws clicking on the floorboards ), but once he's actually out and about in the big bad world, he calms down reasonably quickly. We had a really good day yesterday, with a very successful walk.

Archie does have a friend - Jazz, my in-laws' greyhound - and he loves his walks with her. She's a very feisty female, so definitely does him some good. It can be hard to link up with them regularly, but we do it as often as we can. We also went on a walk a couple of weeks ago with some hounds from our local RGT, and that was a big success, too.

We would love nothing better than a permanent confident companion for him! Bluegreyhound - how do you find it having two dogs in a flat? We have discussed it but feel it really isn't an option right now (we're both self-employed and the credit crunch is biting!).

I realise I was being too 'firm' with Archie, and felt I was in danger of every attempt to get him outside becoming a confrontation - even when we left his collar on and quietly clipped his lead on he was just staying clamped to his duvet and was growling a lot at every attempt to get him up. So Roland and I have introduced a lot more play and treats inside the flat, in the hope that it will make the move outside less daunting for Archie. We're making very small steps, but fingers crossed it's working.

We also have an appointment with a dog behaviourist on 15th November, so are hoping very much that she will be able to tell us where we're going wrong, and what we can do to resolve it.

Thanks again everyone. I really appreciate your suggestions.

[bluegreyhound]

Two dogs in a flat not really a problem, although we would love a garden, as it is a big hassle getting leads on every time we want them to go for a wee!

We have quite a large flat though. Our previous house was about the size of a kennel, so Eva felt very at home when she came straight from kennels!

The dogs definitely do give each other confidence, although I wouldn't say they are best friends yet. Beware a second dog though - it will not be the same as your first one. Fanta, even on his own, is much more hassle than Eva.

Boyfriend says we can't have a third one 'til we live on a farm!

[chaps]

Hello Ailsa,
It has been ages since i have posted on here (life is getting in the way at the minute) but had to post about this! I can't believe it! I have been having exactly the same problem with Dennis! It started off with him seeing a hot air balloon in the sky & completely freaking out & has since developed into a fear of the moon & generally everything in the sky that shouldn't be there (smoking chimneys, satellite dishes & even lamposts!)
This has been going on for about 4 months now, and we have been making slow & steady progress with him. We have switched to a harness now and it seems to make Dennis feel much more secure on his walks, so i would recommend that. The only thing with switching to harness would be that it is much more 'physical' to put on, so might be hard if you are having trouble getting him off his bed.
The other thing we have done is to whistle train Dennis, so he now associates the sound of a whistle with food & therefore can be distracted by this when we are out on walks. At first he wouldn't respond to this when out as he spooked and tried to bolt so much, but now, after a long period of gentle encouragement he will sit on command whilst out and accept a treat (esp if it is really tasty!). It has taken AGEs to get him to this point though, so patience is definately gonna be a virtue with this!
Another thing i have found to work with dennis is taking him in the car to somewhere new, like the woods or a big park. Dennis loves going in the car & associates this with positive stuff, so generally after going in the car he will be so excited about going somewhere new that he will forget about looking skywards for a little while, and even if he gets scared later on, at least the walk starts on a positive note!
Sorry for the horribly long reply but i know exactly what your going through, so just wanted to let you know what has worked for us! I hope he gets over it, its horrible to feel so helpless when your hound is so scared! It is such a hard (and weird) thing to desensitise them to!
Hope this helps.

Clare xx

[ailsa]

Oct 29, 2008 18:19:23 GMT -5 chaps said:

Hello Ailsa,
It has been ages since i have posted on here (life is getting in the way at the minute) but had to post about this! I can't believe it! I have been having exactly the same problem with Dennis! It started off with him seeing a hot air balloon in the sky & completely freaking out & has since developed into a fear of the moon & generally everything in the sky that shouldn't be there (smoking chimneys, satellite dishes & even lamposts!)
This has been going on for about 4 months now, and we have been making slow & steady progress with him. We have switched to a harness now and it seems to make Dennis feel much more secure on his walks, so i would recommend that. The only thing with switching to harness would be that it is much more 'physical' to put on, so might be hard if you are having trouble getting him off his bed.
The other thing we have done is to whistle train Dennis, so he now associates the sound of a whistle with food & therefore can be distracted by this when we are out on walks. At first he wouldn't respond to this when out as he spooked and tried to bolt so much, but now, after a long period of gentle encouragement he will sit on command whilst out and accept a treat (esp if it is really tasty!). It has taken AGEs to get him to this point though, so patience is definately gonna be a virtue with this!
Another thing i have found to work with dennis is taking him in the car to somewhere new, like the woods or a big park. Dennis loves going in the car & associates this with positive stuff, so generally after going in the car he will be so excited about going somewhere new that he will forget about looking skywards for a little while, and even if he gets scared later on, at least the walk starts on a positive note!
Sorry for the horribly long reply but i know exactly what your going through, so just wanted to let you know what has worked for us! I hope he gets over it, its horrible to feel so helpless when your hound is so scared! It is such a hard (and weird) thing to desensitise them to!
Hope this helps.

Clare xx

Hi Clare

Thank you so much for your reply! It makes me feel so much better that Archie isn't the only half-wit to be scared of such random things. The feeling of helplessness is the worst thing, isn't it? Simply because it's so hard to avoid things that are so banal to us!

Archie is slowly getting better. Although he still quivers like a leaf when we're putting on his lead, he settles down much more quickly once he's actually out and about, so his problem seems to be more about the anticipation of what he might see, rather than the reality.

He's been wearing a harness now for several months, and I agree about the security thing - for him and for us.

Fingers crossed for a (relatively) quiet 5th November, otherwise I can see it undoing any progress he's made.

Hugs to Dippy Dennis!

Ailsa

[elmuervo]

This may sound silly, but is it worth you buying a table lamp that has a white spherical shade and leaving it lit so that round, bright lights are commonplace and no longer scary?

Jo
x

[ailsa]

Nov 3, 2008 11:39:32 GMT -5 elmuervo said:

This may sound silly, but is it worth you buying a table lamp that has a white spherical shade and leaving it lit so that round, bright lights are commonplace and no longer scary?

Jo
x

Not silly at all! I'll try anything!

Which reminds me, a few weeks ago he sat in his basket in the corner of the kitchen, and stared at the bare light bulb for a good ten or fifteen minutes. He then let out a single almighty WOOF! And settled down to sleep! Definitely a bit simple, but I do love him... ;D

My husband read somewhere recently that a full moon is eleven times brighter than it is for the rest of its cycle, which could explain some of Archie's terror.