Incident then Abuse In The Park

[elmuervo]

We had such a bad experience in the park this evening. Steve and I are really upset and have been rowing ever since.

As you may know, we have a dog called Ellie who is a meduim sized collie / whippet cross. She is a rescue dog who we've had for four years. Ellie mustn't have been socialised well as a pup, because although she is 100% non-agressive she's extremely vocal on the lead - tail waggy, excited and very barky, but never nasty.

Barney the greyhound, newly retired, came to us directly from his trainer two months ago. He's great, but at the moment he's inexperienced in 'real life', which is to be expected. He has had limited interactions with other dogs, and we can't attend socialisation classes until he has been neutered. That said, we've had no problems in that regard at all - only sniffs and wags - until this evening . . .

We were in the park, and both Ellie and Barney were on the lead (as they always are in public - rubbish recall and a risk not worth taking!). Barney was not wearing his muzzle as for two months he's been the perfect gentleman with everybody that he's met - both two and four legged. A little distance away we saw a young-ish couple coming towards us with a juvenile Weimeraner who was off the lead and bouncing around. We carried on walking, pressed against the side of the path because we knew that Ellie would start barking with excitement, which she duly did. The Weimeraner's owners made no attempt to restrain her as she ran towards us at full speed. They were just laughing. When she reached us she bounced around barking in front of Ellie and Barney, then she bounced onto Barney's side. Completely out of nowhere, Barney turned to where she was at his side and bit her on the back. A quick bite - he didn't hold on or draw blood, but there was no growl from him, no bark, no warning. He just did it and then let go. Ellie, of course, was barking the whole time.

The Weimeraner yelped and recoiled to her Mum and Dad, who started checking her over. There was no damage at all to her skin (she was just covered in greyhound spit). Once they knew she was okay the abuse started. They were screaming that their dog was only playing, that our dogs must be effing vicious, are an effing disgrace, should be effing put down, greyhounds are effing savages, etc., etc, (you get the picture). It was mortifying.

I was falling over myself to apologise, saying that it had never happened before, that Barney's very inexperienced and Ellie is just vocal, that they are always on the lead so are under control. I was really grovelling and trying to make things okay again, but they weren't interested. We didn't get involved in a shouting match - that's not who we are - but when Steve calmly pointed out that had their dog been on the lead as it should have been then this would not have happened, the abuse got worse and really personal (I'm chubby and they just couldn't resist having a jab). Steve was furious but still in control, and I was barely managing not to cry and I was shaking. I suppose I was shocked that it had happened at all, but their reaction made it a million times worse. They were monsters who accepted no share of the blame at all.

As we went our separate ways the guy was screaming "SHUT THE F**K UP!" at Ellie, again and again. Needless to say, she didn't, which for once made me proud.

Steve and I have been arguing ever since because I want Barney to wear his muzzle from now on and Steve absolutely does not see the need.

Steve thinks that we and Barney are completely blameless, and that becuase Barney's not yet able to read dog body language he felt threatened so issued a warning bite. He's adamant that had the other dog been under control there would have been no problem, so we should not make Barney wear his muzzle as given a similar situation again Barney would feel even more vulnerable, making matters worse.

I think that as long as Barney might misread the cues from a playful or young dog, then we must put his muzzle on to protect other dogs. And I feel that we let Barney down by not putting ourselves between him and the 'threat' (not that we knew he'd interpret things that way until it was too late) - that we should have prevented the Weimeraner from reaching him and bothering him. We essentially left it to him to deal with the situation himself, and he made a really bad choice.

I want to do the right thing. I want to keep everybody safe and happy. I don't want our dogs to be feared or loathed - they don't deserve that.

Does anybody have any advice? Has this happened to anybody before? Is Barney going to turn nasty, or is what he did understandable and something that we can work on? What if he does it again, but next time really means it? He's a big dog, and that could be catastrophic.

Oh, and I can't belive that people are all too ready to be so horrible. Quelle nightmare . . .

[elmuervo]

We've just been for our morning walk (without Steve, who's gone to work) and Barnie wore his muzzle. There was nobody around at all, which was a relief as I wasn't in the mood to talk.

Just as we were leaving a loose dog came in (its owner was 100 yards behind it down the road). I held Barney's head close to me and talked to him while we walked faster. Ellie was uncharacteristically quiet and the loose dog didn't come over, thank God.

Having had time to reflect, I hope that yesterday the Weimeraner's owners only reacted as they did becuse they were shocked. That would be understandable I suppose. Don't know what we'll do if we see them again and the nastiness carries on. That would be awful.

Am I right in saying that at worst the incident was six of one and half a dozen of the other? It's really shaken my confidence in both our judgement and our dogs. I've been obsessing overnight that Barney might be feeding emotionally off Ellie's barky behaviour and that it's making him edgy. Is that likely?

Can't get over how quickly it all happened and how nasty the fall-out was.

Steve's still adamant that Barney will not be wearing his muzzle when out he's with him. He says that he won't be bullied by idiots who don't control their dogs. I'm of completely the opposite opinion - I'll do whatever I can to make me and everybody else more at ease, and if that means a muzzle then so be it.

Steve's making a stand against abusive people, but that doesn't help Barney, does it?

[just jackie]

Firstly can I say how sorry I am to read of your unpleasant experience, it's always upsetting when something such as this happens.

I agree with Steve in so far as the owners of the Weimeraner should have been more responsible and had their dog on lead. It's a possibility that their young dog had poor recall, and in that case should never have been off lead and allowed to run unrestricted. I suspect in fact that some of their abuse was an attempt to divert blame from themselves as they probably realised they were at fault.

Now I am going to change sides and say that I am 100% in favour of muzzles on hounds that 'might' react to other dogs running at or close to them. The plastic greyhound muzzles are not uncomfortable for the dog, and if Barney is only recently retired from racing he will be used to wearing a muzzle anyway. I have seen one or two incidents of hounds reacting badly to small dogs running around them, and trust me it is really not worth the risk of your dog injuring (or worse) someone else's pet. I will add that having been inattentive on one occasion I have had my own dogs involved in an incident that cost my terrier pain and injury inflicted by one of my hounds, and me a tidy sum for veterinary treatment. This wasn't down to any aggressive tendencies, but more to the excitement of the moment. Things can happen very quickly, and we can't always be in a position to step in, so better safe than sorry.

As for the young couple lets hope that they learn some good dog handling skills before their young lad gets into real trouble. It's a shame that there are dog owners like them around, but sadly there are all too many. It's their dogs I feel sorry for especially when all too many of them end up in rescue because they haven't been properly trained.

Good luck with the socialisation classes, are you taking Ellie along as well?

Jackie
x

[just jackie]

I've just read your account of this morning's walk and first off good for you for getting out there and not letting yesterday evening's experience stop you.

Just one comment, you say "I held Barney's head close to me and talked to him while we walked faster."

My advice would be to try and relax a little. Barney is muzzled so he can't do too much damage, and if you react to other dogs by shortening his lead and rushing away he could pick up on the fact that you are feeling anxious and that could cause him to feel uneasy.
I know it's not always the easiest thing to put into practice, but try and keep his lead slack, and only tighten it if he does something that needs to be checked.

Good luck
Jackie
x

[rzs]

Hi

Umm.. I would just say muzzle him.

It doesn't hurt him to wear a muzzle, he's still very inexperienced at just 2 months out of kennels and so are you with him. Regardless of whose fault any incident is, surely it's better to take steps to minimise any damage to someone else's dog or indeed your own should (god forbid) things escalte into a full-blown fight. I don't want to scaremonger but taking the "moral high-ground" on something like this is so not worth it if a dog is seriously injured or even PTS.

I'm sure that someone more experienced will come along in a bit and be able to give you a more in depth reply but that's my gut-reaction advice for what it's worth.

I hope that you and your OH can agree once you've got over your nasty shock.

[vickyb]

What an awful thing to happen! Poor you and Barney Its a shame you and Steve are falling out over something that really wasn't your fault.
I'm really not sure about the muzzle issue when you are both out long term but I would definately muzzle him when just one of you is walking both of them as obviously it's much harder to control them both and dropping a lead in a fracas is so so easy. It might be a good idea to use it all the time at least until he's had the chop as he's more likely to be reactive at the moment. It will make you more relaxed which will help the dogs as picking up on your tension (both in and out of the house) is going to make the situation worse when you meet other dogs. You need to be meeting other dogs safely not feeling as if you are scared to, which without a muzzle you will.
Have you thought of seeing Jim Greenwood? I don't know where you are or if he's going to be in your area but we went to one of his workshops a month or so ago and it was amazing. In 2 hrs he's helped us to make such a difference in our dogs.

[Barneysmum]

My Barney is muzzled when we are out and about in daylight hours as he has a tendency to jump around and try to get out of his collar/harness/my grasp to do this he uses his teeth and on a couple of occasions I have been in his way - he isn't a vicious dog and you can see the shock in his eyes but he is fearful of somethings.

Having been on the receiving end of his bite I think it better to be seen to do something than risk having him labelled a vicious dog or even worse PTS due to him biting someone.

You will feel more confidence when the muzzle is on as you know the risk of him biting has been removed and so will not have the tension going down the lead and making him react negitively.

What area are you in, there maybe some gappers around that would be willing to meet up and help you regain your confidence and trust in Barney, your handling of him and the people you may meet whilst walking.

I also went to training classes with him and foster dogs but didn't take part in the class until they were calm with the other dog's in the class - then could concentrate on teach them than spending the hour just trying to control them.

Marie

[pointy]

What a horrible couple you met, stupid as well as its obvious your Barney was just telling the dappy sausage dog off, if he was "effing vicious" sausage dog would have been mauled. Your dogs were under control on the leash, their dog was not under control and in your dogs faces so its owner is at fault.
You had nothing to apologize for but if you keep a muzzle on him in the future it will be safer for him as well as you as it will protect you both from other butthole owners like the ones you just met.
Poor old sausage dog, one day his stupid owners will let him off the leash and they will encounter a nutter with an equally nutter bull type.....

[vickyb]

I'd just like to add that I think you are being very generous towards the other owners, they sound like who shouldn't have a dog. My dogs go off the lead but I never let them bounce up to dogs on the lead of any breed as I figure there's a reason why they're on the lead and it just might be that it's to stop trouble starting. I hate people like that they get us all a bad name.

[Deleted]

Sorry to hear about this, I am just so pizzed off with other people at the moment & their inability to control their dogs

I have decided that I'm not having any more dogs here on foster for the time being as I just can't handle the stress of walking them worrying what is going to happen next.
At the moment a week isn't going by without an incident of one kind or another. Yesterday I had 2 off lead staffies bounce all over my 3 with the owner in the distance laughing & yelling don't worry they are friendly. This went on for so long that Pixie actually managed to chew through her muzzle so I now have to buy a new one.
On another board someone posted a thread expressing their outrage that someone had tried to kick their off lead dog because it ran up to another, I just don't know what you are supposed to do just stand there & let your dogs get bounced all over & wound up making their future reactions to other dogs even worse.

You have nothing to apologise for your dogs were on a lead theirs wasn't, people are very laid back about letting their dogs run amok until they get hurt then it's always someone elses fault.
If you were walking along minding your own business and a total stranger ran up to you & started pushing you around wouldn't you react, Barney behaved in a totally normal way as far as I can see. If my dogs ran up to someone elses & caused a fracas I would be apologising.

The Weimerana owners should be in Room 101

Sorry I don't have any advice for you btw, I wish I knew what to do for the best myself

[ownerofgreys]

I had similar experance a couple of years ago,when I took my dogs for their walk around he park, we came across this stroppy woman who had about 10 children with her and a staffy pup off the lead well she was more interested in putting her darling child on the swing and taking no notice what so ever of this out of control pup who saw my gang and just ran at them

Now my gang who are not always good with other breeds didn't stand a chance the staffy took an instant dislike to Billy and went straight for his throat (he still has the collar with teeth marks in it).

In the end I screemed at the woman to come and get her bully of a dog and get it on a lead, well of course I got a mouthful from her, telling me she was allowed to let her dog of it's lead and that mine should be under better control, which makes me laugh as all were on leads and muzzled and hadn't utted a sound I think mine were more shocked that this totally crazed dog had appeared from nowhere and basicly attacked them.

The staffy is now a full grown dog and of course is still allowed to terrorize all the local dogs the woman still has no control and it is never on a lead.

I have found an alternative walk for my gang rather than come across that stupid woman who seems to think it's fine for her dog to attack others.

[Lisa]

Tell Steve to completly turn it on its head. Had the dog not been a young pup but had bounced over Barney and had retaliated when Barney went to bite you could have ended up with one hell of a fight on your hands sadly.

I dont muzzle my dogs for other dogs safety I muzzle them for my own dogs safety. I would rather god forbid somebody else pay my vets bills than me having to pay theirs or be mortified that my dog had killed/done long lasting damage to another dog.

Ive also found that when idiot owners see you approaching with a muzzled dog they tend to make more effort to put theirs back on leash as they pre empt your dog being aggresive.

As for idiot owners had it been me they were dealing with they would have walked off thinking *I* needed muzzling not my dogs. Tosspots.

Keep your own dogs safe, use a muzzle that way they cant be accused of doing any damage. The other dog is the other owners look out if it damages your dog then they will have to take the responsibility. I hope beyond hope that my dogs never get seriously attacked and killed by another dog but I know I would live with myself easier at that than it being my dog that did the killing should a situation escalate out of control it only takes one misplaced bite.

You did nothing wrong and I think your being sensible now.

[ownerofgreys]

That's the very reason I muzzle my gang Lisa, to keep my dogs safe

[Flaperoo]

Steve is right; you and Barney were completely blameless, but like many on here I too believe it is a good idea to wear muzzles, and particularly until Barney has been to socialisation classes and you are confident of how Barney will react consistently.

It is better to be wise before the event than sorry after.

I hope you and Steve come to an amicable agreement and that everything is back to normal soon.

Good luck

Mary x

[Soubrette]

Awww what a crap ending to a day

There is an interesting article called something like "he only wants to say hi" where the writer says that so called aggressive dogs are actually only defending their personal space against rude dogs.

I don't altogether agree that the behaviour is acceptable but I can see that it is understandable. The author references Ian Dunbar's bite to injury ratio as evidence as to whether these dogs are aggressive or not ie as Barney did not break the skin (and he easily could have done) then he is not being aggressive, he is actually putting a rude dog in its place.

Sometimes I'm tempted to print off some copies of this article and hand it to dog owners whose off lead dogs 'just want to say hi' and can't see that my dog just wants to say .

However, in practice I muzzle my dog whenever we go out for much the same reasons as Lisa. I've heard the alternative argument that a muzzled greyhound is a defenceless greyhound but my old boy at 8 can outrun a 3 year old lab so if the worse comes to the worse I can drop the lead. The other main reason I muzzle is that although no keener than other dogs I have no doubt he would catch and kill a cat and I never want to tell someone that my dog had killed their beloved pet.

So in short, I do not believe it is your fault, I do not believe that you deserved abuse, I believe that you should have been the ones to be have been given profuse apologies but although Barney doesn't deserve to be muzzled, I would muzzle him for his sake.

Just as an observation - next time don't be so nice Some people see this as an admission of guilt so offer one apology and if some gives it then (if you are like me) walk away (wishing you could give it some back )

I hope you both feel better about the whole thing now anyway, it's a shame that other people's selfishness is causing strife between you and your husband.

Sou