help lead aggressive boy

[hanraa1]

Our boy gromit is an angel in the house with our other (very dominant) girl. Gromit is an Italian greyhound whippet x and came into our hands through odd circumstances. His owner who had only had him three months couldn't cope and was going to sell him on Gumtree so we stepped in and took him off her hands. He's only 3 and had 3 owners so far so we expected some issues. I'm just unsure of where to start, there is no doubt he has improved in the 6 months we've had him but I'm confused by his behaviour. I'll try to explain;
He is not dominant at all around dogs in our family (we have loads but all sighthounds) and gets on fantastically playing and appears to accept that he's not in charge. Other dogs of friends who aren't sighthounds he is initially a little wary but will soon play and be best friends particularly enjoying the company of a big black schnauzer. 
However when we're out for a walk he is a different dog, he will bark and spin and lunge (although on the most part we have managed to get this down to just barking) when dogs come close (owners allowing there dogs to come and sniff him despite me warning them gromit is frightened) he will initially be friendly tail wagging pulling a little to see them might even lick their mouth, he will suddenly change go very still and snap. It's not always and the same sort of dogs seem to be a problem; black, fluffy, big or labs he really hates labs.

One day he'll be fine and walk like a dream the next he will be a nightmare and ill go home crying. I know it's probably me and I'm adding to his anxiety. I love him so much and will never give up on him but I'd love to have some idea of what the problem is. Like I say it's not all the time and I give him a treat every time we see a dog in the distance and as we get closer until he barks which has worked to a point.
We did have some 'professional' help but he was useless and told me to shout at  him when he had one of his spinny lungey moments which worked when he did it buy I just felt he was wrong as he told me gromit is trying to be a dominant dog and I really disagree. 

[gazer]

Hi, sorry you are having problems with little Gromit.
I had a lurcher who was a complete star at home, not aggressive, in fact probably at the bottom of the pack most of the time.
Out and about he was at times, dreadful, it was fear based, he would lunge and bark and to people who did not understand him it would look awful.
First of all I learned to accept he had fear aggression and stopped getting upset about it. Not easy to begin with but I soon got to know the signs when he was about to 'kick off' so I could prepare myself and deal with it calmly.
The distance he became uncomfortable was at times quite big, it did depend on the dog in question, if we passed a dog who was calm, giving off good vibes then Solo was usually ok with it.
I did not walk him close to unknown dogs, his body language would change as soon as he began to feel fearful, the key was to take action as soon as this starts, or avoid altogether.
I would reward and praise him if he walked past without fuss and ignore him if he got upset.

He never completely got over his fear ,he came from an unpleasant background as a working dog.

I started off by shouting, but it really didn't help and when he was in full flow he wasn't listening anyway. 

You could try walking with a dog he is comfortable with, this can often help.

All dogs are different and Gromit may have other issues to my boy, but this is my experience for what it's worth, I am no expert though.

Has Gromit been neutered, this may make a difference, also, how is he with unneutered dogs, I know Solo, like some other males could not tolerate being near an entire male.

Good luck with your lad, please let us know how you are getting along

[thedogpack]

My bbb came to us very lead reactive because of his past history . He would turn himself inside out at the sight of another dog , even as a dot on the horizon . He would jump head height to me from standing and redirect his frustration at me , screaming and lunging and spinning all at the same time .

He gave me numerous nose bleeds where he bashed me with his head whilst jumping and ripped my coat numerous times as he clawed against me . He was ' just' terrified and his act of aggression was a ploy to stop the other dogs getting him first and his only way of dealing with a frightening situation he couldn't run from as he was restricted on the lead .  

I used a harness and gentle leader with a double ended lead , plus a muzzle .  Personally I would never shout as my boy was already stressed so why stress him further or add to his aggression by joining in ?

I used reward based  distraction . Turning my boy away from the dog the moment he spotted it , and used the leave it command . I avoided places where we would meet off lead dogs with incompetent owners and did a lot of road walking . I crossed over if we saw on coming dogs , put myself between my dog and the other dog and put myself in the front line so as my boy didn't have to make the decisions on how to deal with the situation and always tried to keep the distance my boy was comfortable with  between us and the other dog .

I found a safe spot near shops where we could stand and my boy could observe dogs coming and going , but at a distance he was comfortable with . The distance has to be a level your dog is happy with and doesn't feel the need to react . Lots of praise , treats etc for good behaviour and I turned my boy  away if reaction tried to kick in , timing is the key .   

My boy lives with a pack of 4 other hounds and was perfect with them from the start and is once he knows a dog .   It's ' just' that initial panic about how to deal with an unknown dog . Try to avoid dogs approaching your dog head on as that is very confrontational .  

Full credit to you for helping Gromit and taking on a dog with issues . All will be well given patience and time . My boy will never be the perfect boy but he is a far different dog to the mixed up boy that joined us 4 yrs ago and I can happily walk him now with my other hounds , something that was totally impossible in his first year .

It is said that dogs exhibit one or more of the 5 F's , behaviour wise,  in situations they are unsure about . Fight , Flight , Fidget  , Fool around or Freeze .

Good luck and well done to you  

[sibs]

You are not alone. We had Lace and followed Dog pack s strategy . It is always the other owners who seem to feel that its okay for their friendly 'just want to play 'dogs to race up to your on lead anxious dog who are the my greatest problem and annoyance. Also there tends to be a cycle of your anxiety which you need to break somehow . Someone suggested singing a song or failing that I utter an incantation on idiot humans We haven't been put off as we now have Cora although so far she has been a peach by comparison.

[hanraa1]

It really helps to know that we aren't alone! We had him neutered as soon as we got him and oddly he seems to be more upset by females than males, although can't recall him ever having much interaction with entire males.
I have been toying over getting a harness but due to his odd little shape/size I'm struggling to find one to fit him. He is really small but extremely deep chested.
I've trialled making him sit when I notice his behaviour or body language changing and have him focus on a treat which seems to work but I'm never sure if I'm doing more harm than good.
Did any of you ever have horrible human encounters? I recently had a lady who told me he needed putting down due to him having an enthusiastic bark at her dog, was most upset about that!
I wonder if he would be better off lead? He's recall has improved considerably since he fell into our laps! But I'm always worried he would get into a horrible dog fight! I think he would be much better if I could just relax!!

He's such a beauty and a real cuddle monster aside from his antisocial behaviour I couldn't have had a more wonderful dog!

[futuramafan]

You really are not alone! I have had more than one therapist for Molly who is fearful of other dogs when she is out on a walk (weirdly if a dog comes to the house she accepts it and plays like a pup with it). I now just avoid situations where we have to deal with lots of dogs. I have found a beautiful walk where we rarely if ever see other dogs and if we do see dogs I just calmly walk in the other direction. This has come from BAT training I did with her. She is lovely with people and with our other dog and so we have just decided to go with the flow.

[vickyb]

Our Bod- whippet x, is an angel at home and not dominant at all to the girls, he's actually really respectful to them and avoids conflict but he hates strange dogs when we're out and can be a pain in the bum. Over time he has improved slightly in that he's ok on lead unless they get too close rather than just at any dog any distance. He reacts equally to males and females and even on the odd time he hasn't reacted I wouldn't trust him not to. 

We walk him in a lightweight muzzle which has made it much less stressful and he's not bothered at all by it and a ruffwear webmaster harness. Have you seen them? not cheap but have a handle on the top and if he really gets worked up or a dog comes right up to us I can just lift him up by it so I'm not holding onto just his lead as he attempts to lunge. They come in a lot of sizes and there is a lot of adjustment on them, they're great for sighthounds.

We think some of it is fear aggression plus a desire to protect the other dogs - all girls and myself. The strange thing is that he's much better if we walk him alone but then as soon as he's walked with the girls he goes back to barking. I agree shouting is useless, all I think it does is encourage them to bark louder  We've tried the treat thing but with only limited success.

When we meet new people on walks I explain about him (at a distance) and ask people not to let their dogs run up to us and on the whole people are ok and understand although Tony did once threaten to put someone on his back for saying that if he needed muzzling he should be PTS  (no he's not normally aggressive!) 

I know it's stressful but you're far from the only one and getting upset just spoils walks but I know it's easier said than done . I have come back from stressful walks in tears - usually when an idiot owner has allowed their dog to run at us and I've just had to stand there holding all 4 as Bod and Gracie go bonkers - and I don't blame them, if someone ran at me I wouldn't be too happy either but these days it happens less and I don't get so bothered by it. 

We avoid other dogs as continually trying to socialise him wasn't helping and we're lucky enough to have places to walk where they can go off lead and play together without fear of a strange dog suddenly looming up on us.  He's clearly unhappy near other dogs so I don't feel the need to push him into a situation that he isn't happy in wherever possible. I find a muzzle really gives me peace of mind and made walks more relaxed as I know he can't bite another dog. I have 2 who wear muzzles and 2 who don't.

[thedogpack]

Yes , we've had horrible human encounters  

Another dog walker said that my boy needed to be PTS because of the noise he made , needless to say she got firmly put in  her place . I usually do anything to avoid confrontation but no one says that about my boy

Also people would let their dogs come running up and just watch as their dog ran circles around my boy or yap in his  face whilst my boy got wound up , they were oblivious of his " I need space " yellow jacket or the stress they were causing him . They would watch with glee thinking everything was fine as long as their dog was having fun . Some people were so selfish and would look at me as if I had a problem when I asked them to recall their dog . They would come out with comments like "He / she is only playing  " and look bemused when I explained that play was only play if both participants were enjoying it !

We have found some great , quiet walks and thankfully don't have many issues like that anymore .In the early days I would get horrible comments and often burst into tears as soon as I got home .

You are doing a brilliant job and just try and rise above peoples hurtful  comments or funny looks

Regards harnesses , all my hounds wear the Ruffwear Webmaster Harness . My lurcher is a whippet saluki cross and very deep chested but the Ruffwear fits her well . On the expensive side , but the best harness ever , in my opinion . Totally escape proof and very adjustable . My lurcher is very nervous could escape out of all the harnesses I tried , pull backwards and the harness would come off over her shoulders but she can't escape from the Ruffwear .  

[vickyb]

I've found that saying to people that I don't let my 4 off to fly at their dog in case they frighten it and it has a heart attack at so many dogs all at once - said in a friendly way of course - often results in their dog getting put on lead quickly!

And when I get the 'it's ok he's friendly' I reply 'yours may be but 2 of mine aren't' and that gets results too!!!

I find that generally people have now got the message that my dogs aren't allowed to frighten or harass theirs and most tend to return the favour apart from the odd idiot. I do a mean glare! but if ever I move well away from an onlead dog and it's a staffy or bull breed I've not seen before I always say 'It's not yours it's mine' and so many owners really appreciate it as they really do get such a lot of nasty looks and people dragging their dogs away as if theirs will kill it and them - very sad.

[gazer]

I'm much the same, I've had people walk past us mumbling 'vicious dogs' and 'shouldn't be allowed out'

My replies at first are polite, asking them to call their dog, then if I get "But he only wants to say hello" I reply with
"Look at my dog, does it look like he wants to return the compliment, you have successfully managed to stress him out and pi** me off, just think next time will you !"

That may seem a bit harsh for some, but I really try to stay out of the way of such dogs and people, only going where my dogs can have a good, relaxing walk, then out of the blue, they appear and seem not to have a clue about dog behaviour.  They can see 2 dogs in muzzles and harnesses and both on lead.
I'm afraid, I sometimes lose it.

However, the other day I was out with my 2 girls, one is quite fearful and the other redirects to her.  As we approached the field I saw a large lab off lead, it boinged towards us but as it's owner saw us coming she called it to be put back on lead.  As we passed each other I thanked her, no problem she said, I've been there.

So there are some good guys out there, just a little bit hard to find sometimes.

[vickyb]

I probably sound a bit harsh too but I'm always polite and always thank people who put their dog on a lead. It's the ones whose dogs are totally out of control and who don't get it that I am sharper with. If you see 4 onlead isn't it reasonable to assume it's for a reason and so don't let your dog fly up to them be it friendly or not?

A few mths ago I had an encounter with on off lead whippet which fortunately stopped in its tracks when I told it to go away (nicely) and she got hold of it. I've seen it before and the woman just says 'oh he's friendly'.  I started to walk off, she went in the other direction, stopped to talk to someone and a man walked past with a calm beagle on lead. After he'd got past them her whippet suddenly flew at the beagle, leapt on its back and was biting its neck and it meant it. The woman hadn't got a clue what to do and just stood screaming.  Hmm, a really friendly dog eh! 

The less people we see the better as far as I'm concerned! I think it's about respect and consideration for other people and their dogs.

[jenjanjo]

I am another in favour of the BAT Training (futuramafan's post). We have a greyhound who for unknown reasons (as we know her background) is very similar... Fine at home with her 'sister' and with visiting dogs etc, but out on lead, displays playful, excited behaviour when she sees another dog approaching, but when we get close and stop to chat etc, after the initial sniff, she snarls and snaps. I sought help and was advised it was most probably a display of anxiety and have been working with the BAT Training programme... Basically, if we see a dog approaching, go the opposite direction/cross road etc and the dog will eventually learn that I won't put her in the situation that makes her anxious. It has worked for me, but obviously, your situation may not be the same. Good luck and I am sure you can work through it.

[hanraa1]

People are extremely strange some times! On the most part we've had very friendly people but it's those nasty few that have made me all the more anxious. Never happens when my partner is with me or he walks them alone though. I think because he looks like a very young dog and I'm in my 20s people can never believe he is a resue and just think I have no control over him, they are always shocked to learn he is on his 4th home.

Also I get the people offering me a ton of advice I don't want, it's exhausting isn't it! We are moving soon so hopefully can scope out some quiet walks for us. We are very lucky that our other dog is so confident out nothing bothers her she just wants to sniff around and completely ignores all other dogs.

Had a look at the ruffwear they look great so have ordered one I hope or fits because he really is a tiny boy, his waist is very very small. I'm considering a light muzzle just on the off chance we encounter stupid humans, it would be more for my piece of mind as he's only ever snapped with intent on one occasion (luckily the other owner was lovely and admitted her error)

Gromit incidentally has never been anything other than normal dog excited to see other sighthounds. Is this the case with anyone else?

[hanraa1]

Jenjanjo that is exactly what gromit does! Have you ha any success with that method?

[becgeo]

My dog Bonnie is also very lead reactive, I have managed to reduce the distance at which she reacts by doing it gradually and rewarding calm behaviour and distracting with treats, however she will never be able to calmly walk past another dog when on lead at very close proximity eg on the same side of the pavement - so I just cross to the other side if I see a dog approaching. Strangely she is much better when the other dog is off lead even if she is on her lead - I think part of the reactivity is down to frustration at not being able to get to the other dog. It is so hard to remain non anxious to prevent you making your dog anxious when you know they are going to react! I also worry about being pulled over, maybe not such a problem with an Italian greyhound whippet cross I guess! Good luck with him, I bet he is gorgeous.