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Post by loopylou on Jun 30, 2012 14:59:29 GMT -5
Barkley again, ;D when he came to us he was ultra respectful of our dogs and still is even a little scared sometimes. They definitely don't bully him though. At the kennels Lisa said he'd been fine with other dogs.The first few days we had him he would pull on his lead in excitement if he saw other dogs and play bow if they were close enough.Over the weeks this has escalated , at the Jubilee weekend I took him to a show /fun day without the others but with a friend and her Lurcher girl. He pulled and barked and screeched at other dogs but once he could say ''hello'' was a gent. Now though he has started to really kick off barking , growling and lunging at other dogs. Now Flynn has started to do the same , Flynn has always been nervous of other dogs when on lead but would just stand quietly or walk by and avoid eye contact, but is excellent off lead and up for a game if the dog is friendly, but now if on lead when Barkley kicks off he joins in.I did speak to Lisa about Barkley a few weeks ago who thought it was curiosity, excitement and the gobby Terrier /Collie genes kicking in. She suggested training classes which I am still trying to organise as my hours are about to change again for the next two months. I haven't plucked up the courage to take him on a Whitelodge walk yet where there can be twenty plus Greyhounds and Lurchers plus the random other dogs not part of our walk.. We are considering taking just Barkley and Tia next week as she is the steadiest , most confident and friendly around other dogs and people, and t.b.h even with two of us we struggle with five when both Barkley and Flynn kick off. I have read the advice on here and it is very helpful but wonder why he has changed so much and if it's out fault, also why Flynn feels the need to join in. Flynn has become more assertive since Barkley came as he has in effect moved up a place in the heirachy. I've never had a reactive dog before and just find it so embarrassing I want to crawl under a stone.  I'd love to take him fund raising and to the Gap show etc but he's very strong and it's a chore when he starts. I am going to have to start muzzling him in case he meets a dog while off lead or an off lead dog runs in his space . Although my gut instinct is that if off lead he would be scared and run to Dave. Any thoughts gratefully received as I'm confused by his behavior. He's such a loveable clown other wise and I am proud of him and want to take him out with the others. Thanks. |
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Post by sassbu on Jun 30, 2012 16:33:47 GMT -5
No advice I'm afraid just bags of sympathy and I'll be interested in any advice given too as I have experienced similar since having sal on foster. Noel has been 100% predictable in kicking off and it started about 3 weeks after sal arrived even though she's easy to control. So bags of empathy, it is a difficult one to deal with but I have had some better results by taking chopped sausage out on walks which he doesn't get in the house and the word sausage alone is now distracting him enough unless we get caught turning a corner say. This week a fellow dog walker actually shouted across the road "oo he seems much better today" so we have gained somewhat of a reputation in the area   Sarah x |
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Post by gilli176 on Jul 1, 2012 3:22:43 GMT -5
will watch for advice here cos i have one who screetchs barks lunges jumps but it is excitment, this then however start the other one off grumbling and lunging not in excitement but in a fearful stay away or i'll get you way. Both are better when walked separate but its not always possible. I can easily distact the fear aggressive one with food or a toy but the excitable madam is a whole different story
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Post by Cath on Jul 1, 2012 4:16:08 GMT -5
I'm another one waiting for Lisa to come along and wave her magic wand. We have exactly the same problem with Jess and it seems to be getting worse
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houndie
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Post by houndie on Jul 1, 2012 4:17:58 GMT -5
sorry i can't give any personal advie but i have a friend who had a greyhound with similar traits. Once she had barked and lunged at the other dog she was fine but up until that point it was mayhem. She took her to angela stockdale (trainer) and the transformation was amazing. # www.dogpartnership.com/aggression.htm |
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Post by colbournes on Jul 1, 2012 4:46:06 GMT -5
Mist does exactly the same and her reactions have "encouraged" Maisie to become reactive on lead to other dogs and cats on our walks. At the moment I am back to absolute basics with Mist - we just stop, look at me and I refuse to move until she is "back on track" - or at least remembers who I am!!! I find Mist really demanding and walking the two together is a muscle workout at times. But I do put it down to her breed (beddie/whippet) and Lisa did warn me!!! She has an over zealous enthusiasm for life generally ;D ;D
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Post by Cath on Jul 1, 2012 6:23:30 GMT -5
Mist does exactly the same and her reactions have "encouraged" Maisie to become reactive on lead to other dogs and cats on our walks. At the moment I am back to absolute basics with Mist - we just stop, look at me and I refuse to move until she is "back on track" - or at least remembers who I am!!! I find Mist really demanding and walking the two together is a muscle workout at times. But I do put it down to her breed (beddie/whippet) and Lisa did warn me!!! She has an over zealous enthusiasm for life generally ;D ;D Jess is beddie/whippet as well |
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Post by loopylou on Jul 1, 2012 11:41:07 GMT -5
I see a pattern here Barkley is Beddie, Collie , Greyhound. ;D ;D ;D
I am going to take high value treats out with us and put him in a ''sit'' when we see another dog approaching I am trying to teach him a ''down''. I am getting him to sit before I let anyone in the door or let him through the stair gate to the lounge as these are times he gets very excitable too and barks a lot. He is very quick on the uptake so hopefully this will help, as he is calmer when sitting watching me, but I need to time it right.
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Post by gilli176 on Jul 1, 2012 14:38:45 GMT -5
mine don't have any beddie one has a lot of whippet
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2012 1:11:31 GMT -5
Sorry, I'm not Lisa but for what it's worth this is what I would do.
The barking and screeching in itself is self-rewarding – the dog feels good as it releases endorphins to the brain and of course it gives relief from the frustration. This on its own makes it a really hard habit to break (as you've found).
I would teach a really good 'Leave' command and try to set up a few times with friends when the reward for 'leaving' when told is to go and play with the dog he wants to shout to. I'm on my way to work early as it's month end, but found this I wrote previously – it was for a fear-aggressive dog but 'leave' has lots of uses:
I would teach 'leave it' by having a pile of really yummy treats - chicken, sausage, cheese or whatever turns your dog on, and a pile of boring food - maybe a bit of his normal kibble.
Put a piece of kibble on the floor and cover it with your hand, or hold it in your outstretched hand. Gizmo should sniff and show some interest, but don't move your hand at all - wait until he realises he can't reach the treat and moves his head away. Praise him immediately - again, you can use a clicker or a word - 'yes' or 'good choice' or whatever comes naturally to you. You are marking the exact point where he's made the choice you wanted, and you can then give him something from the yummy pile. He will soon realise after several repetitions that the marker means a treat is coming.
Once he is having a sniff and moving away quickly, or not even trying to get the kibble, you can up the ante and take your hand off, but hover so you can cover quickly if you need to. Then do the same again - mark and reward. Always make sure that the reward is better than what he's leaving, you're trying to get him to understand that if he makes a good choice he gets something better. If he's very food orientated and gets too excited to leave the kibble, you may have to start with something even more boring like a piece of paper. It doesn't matter as at the beginning you're just trying to get him to understand the principle.
When he has the principle and will leave the kibble reliably, put in the phrase 'leave it'. He should soon get the hang of it.
Build all this up slowly (very slowly, it takes time) where you take your hand away further, then stretch the time from marking the second he moves his head away, a second or so at a time, until he will leave it for probably about 15-20 seconds.
When you come back to this the next day, he'll probably have forgotten a lot of it (same as we do in lessons) so you'll have to recap but should move forward much faster.
Once you know he can do this in different rooms, and the garden, and anywhere else you can think of, you can use it with other things. Try saying 'leave it' with a toy and then give him a better game (or food - whatever motivates him) if he makes the right choice. By now you should find that if dogs aren't too close on a walk, when he starts looking a bit keen and up on his toes you can say 'leave it' and he'll look at you for the reward. Give your marker and reward with the jackpot! A big handful of cheese, a whole sausage - anything that makes it very clear you're thrilled with the choice he made. .
Leave It is a great command to have in your tool box anyway as you can soon use it for anything you want to stop happening, as long as you can offer a decent reward (Cleo knows perfectly well I have nothing that beats a rotting rabbit and I know when to give in gracefully and shut up ).
I would also definitely recommend you walk Barkley on his own whilst teaching him this, otherwise as you've already seen, Flynn will work out how much fun the naughty behaviour is.
I'm sorry this is really rushed, hope it is of some help.
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Post by Lisa on Jul 2, 2012 2:37:57 GMT -5
Thanks Kay xxx Have only just seen this Linda can you give me a ring this morning have been out all weekend. Kay is right and we can go through it  |
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Post by Lisa on Jul 2, 2012 2:40:24 GMT -5
Oh and for everyone else now I know they are eagerly awaiting will put something on in a bit when I have caught up from this weekend ;D
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Post by loopylou on Jul 2, 2012 3:10:42 GMT -5
Thanks very much Kay and will phone you Lisa . |
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Post by loopylou on Jul 2, 2012 5:38:08 GMT -5
Thanks Lisa for the long chat and info. Feel better knowing it's nervous aggression and having some ideas to work on. I have rang a dog training school with a very good reputation. Sarah Whittaker who I spoke too suggested a two hour consultation where she can meet and work with me and Barkley for the first part and then two of her dogs who she uses for teaching would be brought in to continue work with Barkley and myself.She feels a full class may be too much for him at first.After that I continue to work with him and bring him back in six weeks. When I have booked she will send me a detailed questionnaire to give her an idea of our requirements and Barkley's character , problems etc. The dog training school is called Wit's End and Sarah is a writer, broadcaster and lecturer on dog behavior but I have also heard people say her classes are good which holds more weight with me. After all Caesar Milan is a broadcaster and writer. ???They use positive reward based training.What do you think. It's not particularly cheap but if it gives me some more pointers and she can see him with her dogs and work with them I would be happy to go for it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2012 5:58:40 GMT -5
Just sneaked on at work - Sarah Whittaker certainly has the right qualifications, I would go to her and if you're willing I'd be really interested to hear her suggestions. (I think she will look at all aspects of his life and his 'hedonistic budget', ie if he gets enough of everything that's important to him, but I'm only guessing from her qualifications.) |
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