Why wont he go to the Toilet?

[Deleted]

Jun 3, 2012 7:05:17 GMT -5 maxwell said:

I do feel a bit guilty now, I told him off yesterday, poor boy probably wondered why.

Don't feel guilty Maxwell, we all get it wrong occasionally and there's a lot of misleading information out there.

You have given a rescue dog a much-needed home and you're doing your very best by him, including looking for help when you're unsure - that's all any of us can do.

I'm sure he'll settle in soon and you'll look back in amazement at how much he's changed.

[maxwell]

Hi all,

I thought I would post this on this thread, I don't want to spam up the board.

Thanks again for the advice, we are winning on the toilet situation.

I mentioned on this thread that he was testing my authority, for some reason he goes through this stage from time to time, he has been showing signs of dominance lately.

Yesterday I gave him a bone, as soon as he finished the bone he went to lay on my bed, so I told him to get off, to which he ignored, so I approached and went to grab his collar, I knew he would react aggressively as I saw it in his eyes. I still continued, I then grabbed his collar, to which he attacked me

It really was quite vicious, I managed to shut him in the lounge and left him there for about an hour. anyways, I can't have this, I contacted the Kennels and said I think I will have to bring him back. They told me to go back to basics with him, with the training and set strong boundaries.

But if I took him back, seeing as he attacked me they would have to put him to sleep. Which I thought was a really bad thing to say, was almost like blackmail..

Anyways, I slept on it, and decided I dont want to give up on him, I have invested 5 months into him and wont give up yet. But I will have no choice if he attacks me again.

I understand that he is probably a bit confused as to who is the boss, but I think I will squirt him with a water spray from now on, when I want him to move of my bed ect, and stop all treats..

The kennels said it was very rare for a hound to attack, I really dont understand it, as I have given him a great home and he is a lovely dog. But it seems he suffers from sleep/space aggression quite bad

[twiggyandsarah]

I'm sorry to hear you're having a difficult time with Alex. It must have been frightening for you to have had him go for you, but please bear in mind this could well have been a reaction to fear in him. Fear and aggression often go hand in hand - they certainly do with my lurcher, Solo.

When I adopted Solo from Dogs Trust 6 months ago he was labelled as an aggressive dog, but at the heart of that lies the fact that he is a very very nervous dog. You wouldn't believe it if you saw him in any of the situations he feels happy in - he is relaxed and playful and downright adorable most of the time! However, if he gets in a situation where he feels fearful then he behaves like a demon dog of the highest order, towards humans and dogs alike. He is getting better, but it is taking time and very small steps.

As much as I can I use positive reward based training, and I never ever use punishment other than a sharp 'no' if I need him to cease and desist something quickly! I think that these days the 'alpha' type approach has been discredited, and it has been proved that a far more effective (let alone humane!) approach is to make learning fun for the dog by making it worth his while to do the right thing (i.e. he gets a treat, a game with his toy, lots of praise etc etc) rather than doing the right thing just gets him an absence of punishment.

Solo's more severe fear / aggression issues are beyond my amateur abilities so I am going to start working with a professional behaviourist soon, and this might be a thing for you to consider. It's not cheap so I've had to save up, but I see it as an investment in Solo's and therefore my future happiness. Could you perhaps ask around fellow dog owners in your area for recommendations for a good behaviourist? Or ask at your vets, or the rescue Alex came from? If you're not in a position to fork out for it immediately, you could start with a phone call - the lady I intend to use spent over an hour on the phone with me even though she knew that I was not going to be able to afford to start with her for a few months. She gave me some advice and a few exercises to start working with Solo on to lay the groundwork for when we do get going.

I know nothing about sleep or space aggression and I'm sure if there is anyone on here who does they will come along and give you good advice. I am absolutely no expert in dog training or behaviour issues, and have learnt a great deal in the last 6 months from trial and error and from the wonderful world of Gap! I have beaten myself up many times over not knowing exactly what to do for the best for Solo, but ultimately the important thing is that I keep loving him, being patient with him, responding to his needs the best I can, and not putting him in a position where his worst behaviour arises until I can get the face-to-face help I need from a professional. Try to remember that you don't have to start out knowing how to deal with everything, you just have to be willing to learn and keep trying!

I know this is not exactly the same situation as you are in but I wanted to let you know that no matter how slow the progress and how many set backs you face, if you can find it in you to keep trying you will be so very very glad you did.

[jodav]

Maxwell - please try not to be too downhearted - you and Alex will figure things out and as twiggyandsarah said - you'll be very very glad you did My advice is do all the research into trainers/behaviourists you can, some of them know a lot about dogs but not so much about greys! As soon as you can, like has been said, get some 1-1 help. I know other people's situations are never as important as your own but personally, I have spent probably the last 18 months 'coping' with one of my hounds, Paddy. Sleep/space agression, lunging at other dogs on walks, sometimes I have felt utterly dejected and a failure and I'm not exaggerating!!

There is confusing information all over the place about how to train a dog, much of which I think relates directly to biddable puppies and easily trained dogs that just need a bit of direction.

If I had to point to one thing that has made the difference to Paddy's behaviour it is that I have built up a communication with him ;D I've done this through practicing over and over again, getting him looking back at me on walks, games where he touches my hand, some clicker training, calmness, consistency and loads of patience and now he trusts me. All this takes time I know and change is incredibly slow but so, so satisfying when it happens and it will happen to you ;D At the moment you are not really feeling the sheer joy that owing Alex can give but as soon as you do, you'll never look back ;D

Jo x

[Deleted]

Hi Maxwell, sorry to hear that you're having issues you are struggling to cope with. I'm perhaps going to be a little blunt here and I'm sorry if I don't find the words as tactfully as I should, but I hope you will appreciate I only want to help.l

Twiggyandsarah have offered some good advice here, I know it's hard but you really do need to try and forget about the old dominance myth. The best start you can make is to keep the bedroom door shut and not let him get on the bed in the first place. He obviously sees it as somewhere highly desirable and worth guarding, so eliminate the problem altogether, especially as it's not something you feel able to cope with.

You say you could see in his eyes that he didn't want his collar to be grabbed. He is a rescue dog, it is very possible that having his collar grabbed in the past has meant something very unpleasant (possibly a beating) and he has learned that the only way to try to prevent that is to show aggression. I don't quite understand why you persisted when you knew it would result in an attack - I promise you, there is no need to 'prove who's boss' in such a situation. If you can see the dog is clearly uncomfortable with what's happening, it would be better to try to see why that is. It would seem to me that he's had a bone, wants a little nap now so heads for the most comfortable place (who wouldn't?). Then he sees an unhappy owner heading for him and making a grab for him, he thinks he knows what's going to happen next, based on past experiences (prior to coming to you) and deals with it in the only way he knows how. It would be better to walk away, call him in a happy, excited voice, reward him with praise or a treat for coming and then shut the door. You could lure him with a treat or toy if necessary - almost anything which gets him moved happily is better than causing such a confrontation.

I would also, completely separately, work on getting him comfortable to have his collar held. Start with just a touch, then a treat or game, then a finger in and out of the collar and a treat or game and so on - tiny baby steps until he thinks collar-grabbing is great fun, it results in a game with his owner.

As twiggyandsarah has said, you may need help from a behaviourist to work through all issues and understand the difference between laying down basic rules, giving clear boundaries and domination which are completely different. I personally would avoid anyone who calls themselves a 'dog whisperer' or 'dog listener' as these often seem to rely on outdated dominance methods which will only make your dog more confused and probably worsen the problem. It may appear to improve things in the short term but if you can find someone who understands the more modern thinking you will get a much better, long-lasting result.

Having said all that, I am so pleased you want to keep trying with him. It is a harsh truth that a dog sent back to a rescue due to aggression has a greatly reduced chance of finding another home prepared to give him a try and not all rescues are like Gap - some will put to sleep if they think a home is not like to be forthcoming. That's an unfair burden to put on you I agree, but I'm sure with the right help and the right approach you can sort it. Nothing you've written so far suggest to me that you have anything other than a very confused dog who before you had him, wasn't been shown what's acceptable and what isn't - just punished for getting it wrong.

I do fully accept that I've never met your dog and I can't judge just from a few paragraphs so you do need to be guided by someone who does know you both, but hope you will see that this isn't meant to upset or demoralise you, only to help you see there's a better way. I wish you every success with him.

[Flaperoo]

I am really sorry Alex went for you and I really can understand your anxiety . And as mentioned above thank you for persevering.

All the above advice is brilliant and it is hard to know what to add. I too have experienced fear agression in greyhounds not just towards other dogs, but also towards me too

Firstly I want to confirm that I too agree with the comments about dominance: it is not impossible but extremely rare that ANY dog would want to dominate the person who feeds, walks, shelters and loves them, why would they??

Like Kayb has said above I don't know Alex or your circumstances, and few of us ever know what they have experienced in the past .

You should follow the above advice, but additionally have you considered a crate. Crates need to be carefully managed because they shoud never be seen as punishment. A crate is somewhere where your dog feels safe and you feel safe. I can honestly say my greys love them . We started off with one to seperate two dogs that could not be left alone without attacking one another when we were not arround to supervise them , but we quickly discovered ALL our dogs (not just the one's who were agreesive towards one another) LOVED THE CRATE .

What part of the country do you live? This is such a wonderful place that anyone who lived nearby would be willing to meet with you and even if they, because most of us are not; me included experts, they would be a supportive and encouraging.

I too was thrust in the deep end with my first greyhound, and although I had different difficulties with him I can honestly say it was the most rewarding experience of my life to watch him over the years develop into the most wonderful dog .

Good luck

Maryx

There are so many q

[maxwell]

Thank you for the replies, has reassured me somewhat.

I think I have been brainwashed with this Alpha male thing, and the reason I persisted with grabbing his collar is because I thought I had to show him who is the boss, But in hindsight I should have done what you suggested Katyb.

I am learning also, learning as I go. So we have a confused dog, and a confused owner..

The next morning after the attack he was very weary around me, as I was him, its quite cute looking back, as once I showed him affection and felt comfortable he did also, he then stayed close to me all day, looking at me all coy and shyly. Now today he is rolling around wanting to play.

We will get there, I am sure..

Thank you all again for the advice, really is appreciated

And to Mary, I am in Essex.

Max

[andywillow]

So glad you're going to persevere with him, its so sad to think what maybe they have been through in their past and they try and bite due to being scared and probably remembering something thats happened to them before
Our big black male has tried to bite me many times He had been badly treated and was a nervous wreck when he came to live with us, he hates his feet being touched and of course he's the one who has a whole lot of problems with his
He's had many anaesthetics to have glass, grit and 2 corns removed, he is a nightmare and terrified so every dressing change he has to be sedated as he is that bad and will attack anyone who dares to try to go near it.
He's had a corn removed recently and burst his stitches so its taking twice as long to heal and I have to bathe it daily, I have to muzzle him but with the help of dog sossidges rammed in his muzzle I do get to clean it ;D
The rest of the time he is the daftest lump and such a lovely lad who I love lots, we just have to understand his issues and get on with it.
Good luck with your boy, you'll be rewarded tenfold with his love

[julies]

Hi Max

I'm glad that you're questioning this Dominance/Alpha theory ... my experience is that greys are very confused and obviously still trying to 'do their job' which they have been bred and trained for-understandably they are unsure and even frightened I find if you do lots of positive, reward based training they love it and respond really well.

The thing I could never understand about people who promoted Dominance theories as the only way to deal with dogs ..they couldn't explain how is it that if you always control the food ie a prime resource, can the dog ever think it's higher in the order than you? I just think it's a method recommended by trainers who are frightened of dogs and who certainly never bother to understand them Such a shame for the dog

Werlcome to Gap Max and welcome to a much nicer way of working and training and living with dogs

Julie

[Jen Wren]

What you have to remember is you've only had him 5 months. It may seem a long time to you but it can take a long time for a dog to learn to trust you. As the others have said this dominance theory is a load of twaddle. His 'aggression' was borne solely out of fear. He tried to tell you with his body language that he really wasn't comfortable with your direct approach and when you ignored him and grabbed for his collar he did the only thing he felt he could do to protect himself. Out and out aggression is actually quite rare and the majority of the time that dogs show any sort of aggression is when they're scared. There is absolutely no point in trying to take on a dog when they are like this - you won't win. They have many more teeth then you and you were lucky you weren't hurt more badly.

Keep him out of the bedroom, off the sofa. Mary's suggestion of a crate is a good idea. The crate can be used as sanctuary for him when he can be alone and don't bother him while he is safe on his bed. Keep some very high reward treats in the fridge. Something smelly like Salami or garlic sausage is good. Only use them when you are doing some training with him. If he is used to going on the furniture, keep a lead on him and use the treats to coerce him off rather then forcing him off.

It's all about building the trust between you. Owning a dog is not a master servant relationship. He has probably never been able to trust anyone in his life so why expect him to trust you straight away? You need to build a relationship with him, continue to give him what he needs and leave him alone to work things out for himself and keep plugging away. Of course you will need to set boundaries but these can be achieved with co-operation rather then dominance tactics. Slowly you will see a change in him.

[jodav]

Jun 9, 2012 16:51:28 GMT -5 julies said:

I'm glad that you're questioning this Dominance/Alpha theory ... my experience is that greys are very confused and obviously still trying to 'do their job' which they have been bred and trained for-understandably they are unsure and even frightened I find if you do lots of positive, reward based training they love it and respond really well.

Hi Max

Sorry that you're being bombarded with yet another comment from me but .... I think Julie sums it up perfectly with her previous post ;D It's easy to forget that greys are, in the main, working dogs and their whole lives previous to being taken by a rescue kennel or whatever, have been about training and 'chasing.' It's no surprise then that some of them find it hard to make sense of the companion dog life.

Certainly, in the past, I have mis-read our dogs at times, made mistakes, felt terrible and then it really does require one or two things to go right before you start to regain some self-esteem, enjoy yourself and build a fantastic relationship with your dog. Believe me, positive, reward-based training is the way to encourage the one or two things to go right so that Alex respects and trusts you and both of you have a fab time together in the future. ;D

Please let us know how you are getting on in the coming weeks or months.
Jo

[maxwell]

Hi all,

I thought I would give you an update on how we are getting on.

Since the incident I have seen a %100 change in him, we have had no aggression at all. He seems to totally trust me now, and is so happy and settled.

Thanks again for the advice

[kamkay]

Great news - well done for hanging in there !!

[Deleted]

That's great news, I'm so pleased he's learned to relax with you.

[julies]

Great -well done to you both

J x