Socialisation/obedience training

[orlaka]

Hi guys, I've only recently joined this forum and have been enjoying reading some of the threads - because you all seem to be full of useful advice (and I'm seriously lacking in a wise hound mentor in my area) I'd like to pick your brains. Apologies to those who have read my post in the Members section - there is a little bit of duplication for the sake of background info.

I brought the handsome 6yr-old Loot home in January for his new life of being a loved pet - and my first ever dog. All in all he is mostly a total delight - he came housetrained and has never had an accident inside, he likes to check out new things and takes a lot stuff in his stride after a little caution. He's travelled on buses and trains very well (except he MUST lie down in the spot that is most in the way of the greatest number of people), we took him away with us in Easter and he behaved brilliantly, even tolerating not being allowed in the bedrooms in exchange for the full size of the 5 seater couches. 

To begin with he reacted to strange dogs in the park by freezing and staring until they went out of sight, or shouting and jumping about on his leash for
a while until he couldn't see them. Winter was a blessing as I could walk him in the dark so he didn't react as much and got very good at aversive dog
walking!

As time has gone on he's calmed down - when I remember he's only been with me for 4 months I realise he's come on miles. We're still hit and miss
with other dogs but most of them can get close enough for a sniff before any shouting happens - unless they're particularly scary looking. Sometimes he's
perfectly relaxed and sometimes he's shouty and darts about. It's hard to tell if he's playful or aggressive as he moves so fast and because of his size
it tends to make the other dog react so at this point I usually try to calmly head off. If he's calm and sniffs and is friendly I give him lots of praise
and treats and tell him he might be learning some dog manners.

He still LOVES to shout at (and try to chase) squirrels but his cat sensitivity has improved in the same way as the dog reaction has become less extreme - whilst he always keeps an eye on the feline critters he has started looking to me before any straining or whining and sometimes just walks straight past them.

I work full time (so we have a dogwalker come take him out for an hour every lunch) as does my partner and neither of us drive. When I first brought him home, considering his initial reaction to dogs I also assumed I'd only be able to do one-to-one training but I need to put a bit of money aside to do that as I'd like to do a series of them weekly/fortnightly so it's regular and I have a chance to ask about anything I'm struggling with. I'd really rather try him in a group class because I really do think it'll be good for him to socialise and learn to listen to me around other furry beasties, but have been severely hampered by my ability to come home, collect him and then transport him to any of the classes in my area - I live in Leeds and a lot of the obedience groups seem to be in the middle of nowhere and at least an hour of bus journey away.

I've been doing basic training with him since his second week - nothing too complex, he's learnt 'wait' (kerbs, doorways), 'okay' (carry on), 'sit' (took a while but he now is convinced that he's trained me when he sits he gets some food - cue wandering over to us when we make meals and plonking his bum next to us then looking hopeful for treats), 'off' (sofas and the bed), 'down' (but not for long), 'five' (paw), 'heel' (for as long as it takes to eat a treat) and 'here' (sometimes) but as sometimes his response is hit and miss I've not really got any experience training dogs I'm not sure whether I'm going about it the right way.

I was recommended a club by someone who had a pug and went to their puppy classes and sent off an e-mail asking about class times. This morning I read an e-mail response that initially excited then frustrated and worried me. The e-mail started by telling me that there is a 7.30 adult beginner class in a location I can make (FINALLY!) but then proceeded to suggest that maybe I would prefer a 2 one-to-one consultation before booking onto a course as they are intended for 'well socialised dogs'. The consultation would involved the well-trained instructor's dogs potentially assisting with socialisation - all of this sounds good and what I'm looking for and I was glad I'd found somewhere accessible... except the private consultation is £150. 6 week course itself is £75, which was about what I was expecting to pay for it but I'm suddenly not sure if the price of private session is worth what me and Loot will get out of it?

So - does this price sound reasonable? With the way Loot has improved since we brought him home I think the key to him accepting other dogs (or me accepting that it's going to be something I just have to manage and learning how to do it well) would be being around them in a group class. Whilst the consultation sounds helpful for some tips for me and some positive socialising for him, it's a lot for me to be paying to do it repeatedly - I don't know any people in Leeds with (calm) dogs that I could work on socialising him with and it seems to be a closed loop.

How do I teach my lovely dog it's fine to be around other dogs when I can't spend time with other dogs because he's not been socialised with other breeds? I got a bit angry about this because they run puppy classes and the puppies probably wouldn't be expected to be really good with other dogs because that's what socialising is for!

I honestly don't know if this consultation or joining a class and hoping for the best are the only options either - anybody got some ideas?

Sorry, all my posts seem to be super long. Here is Loot looking really happy about a squirrel's demise.

[gazer]

If Loot's socialisation is a bit hit and miss at the moment, a one to one consultation is not going to magically change him, what it will do is advise you what to do when he reacts.

You say he has improved already and he's only been with you 4 months, that's good, that's progress.  Whatever you are doing, it's working so keep at it.  Loads of praise when he walks on by without a bad reaction, if he starts to kick off, just keep going and ignore him, don't tell him off as to be honest when they get into that mode they're probably not listening anyway.

Look at his ears and general body behaviour, if his ears come up slightly and he begins to tense up, he may well be getting ready for a shout or lunge.  Try not to put him in positions where he will fail, as soon as you sense all is not well, move on quickly.  Keep as relaxed as you can, they can tell if you are tensing up. 

Loot could be a little fearful of strange looking dogs he has never seen before, having spent his life in kennels with greyhounds.  Does he growl or snarl at the other dog, these are warning signs that he is not comfortable.  Then again he may just be so excited and actually want to make friends but is not very good at it. 

They are all different, my lad is very laid back and not in the least interested in other dogs unless they are hounds, in fact I would go so far as to say he really doesn't like other breeds too much at all, he has growled on the odd occasion when some have tried to be a bit too familiar.  Show him another hound though and he reacts completely different, like they are old pals at a reunion.

As for the course expecting the dogs to be already socialised, I would try to find another if I could.  It could put you under too much pressure, thinking Loot cannot step out of line, as well as trying to learn new stuff.  What you need is a class where they welcome you in and are happy for you to just sit at the side for a while, for the first couple of times to see how he reacts, then join in if and when you think he's ready.

Another thing you could bear in mind, all other dogs are different, they aren't just other breeds.  Are they male or female, neutered or not, they are all different to Loot, my male dogs would not tolerate an entire male, some do , some get quite aggressive towards them.  So there is alot going on when Loot meets another dog, alot we cannot see or possibly know.

Sounds as though you are doing really well with him though and it is really early days, you will notice him change as time goes on and his character comes out.

Keep us posted please.

[orlaka]

Sometimes growls sometimes play bows - there is some consistency (better with smaller dogs who approach him slowly, hates something bounding up to his face) but sometimes we can't work out what triggers it. When he gets jumpy he moves too fast for me to tell if he's tense or playful :-( I get the impression he doesn't understand how to react and so he starts barking and that often sets the other dog off and sometimes it deteriorates quickly to chasing that I'm not sure is friendly. Seems to be partially about being on a lead as much more relaxed on 10m line and also when he's in new places. He is marginally better with hounds but it can still go either way on the first meet- not many greys I see regularly though.

Not sure there are any other venues at other clubs that I can get to with him, which is why I'm frustrated about this - I think I'll go observe a class anyway without him to scope it out and see if I can talk to the trainer. I'd be quite happy to just take him along once to see how he handles it and if they're amenable to that take it from there. It does seem a bit off to me that obedience trainers are exclusive about how a dog behaves in an 'adult novice' group though?

[vickyb]

I agree. The classes I've been too have been as Jacqui describes, quite happy for anyone to sit out of the way and watch the proceedings and not join in until both owner and dog feel ready. £150 sounds a lot to me but I've no idea about prices really. I don't think it would sit well with me either.
One I went to was very much about getting them super obedient but I much preferred the other one as it was about fun too and more relaxed. I wonder if they are the former?

[jodav]

You've had some good advice already and what you describe with lovely Loot is a situation faced by many at different times with new dogs. My first thought is that £150 for the private consult is a lot of money and you really do want the dog trainer to have very good knowledge of sighthounds for it to be value for money. Jim Greenwood is a trainer specialising in sighthounds and he does travel around the country doing workshops. If the trainer has a bomb-proof dog to assist Loot in helping him to read dog body language that could help Loot to make mistakes in safe way. Sitting at the back of classes, free of charge can be a good way to help hounds get used to the presence of other breeds. In my experience, the fee-paying classes themselves involve slippery floors, circles of dogs with inescapable eye contact and one or two barky dogs with a different agenda. Waiting for you to go through a doorway first isn't your priority with Loot I would guess

Are there any organised rescue hound walks in your area? The walks are very good at helping hounds gain the confidence of the pack and encounter other breeds with a minimum of incident. Regular group walks definitely helped one of our dogs who was very reactive when we got him. A lot of reactivity is based on fear, lack of experience and being on lead restricting the body language they would like to show. Walking with other sighthounds can help or alternatively parallel walking with another very calm dog.

Finally, it's worth remembering that it is the genetic make-up of sighthounds to have sight and movement as their trigger and most are expert at it. A few thousand years of heritage ensures that some react. We can only do our best to slowly interrupt that cycle. Some Border Collie owners look on fondly as their rescue pet ensures his people are all together by herding and nobody minds - it's their job , in their genes and harms no-one. Some of our dogs like to look at squirrels etc which poses more of an issue but we can help with patience and understanding. Hope you find something to help you and Loot.
Jo

[orlaka]

Funnily enough I went to the website to message the area co-ordinator about what I could do to socialised instead of obedience training and there was a big walk on Sunday! We took him and there were GREYHOUNDS GALORE and he was mostly very good; once we got moving he handled being walked with the other hounds very well - there was also a Whippet walk at the same time that we ended up partially being in (he didn't want to walk slowly so we kept joining different groups!) so he did spend a bit of time looking like a giant amongst underlings. Encountered lots of other dog breeds heading in the opposite direction and he pretty much ignored them with a few friendly sniffs (except for one off-lead vizla but the vizla definitely started it) at one point lots of whippets zipping about off lead and although he got a bit prancy and excited he listened to me and didn't snap at any of them even though some were running straight past him.

Lots of other owners made a big fuss of him and a few I got chatting to agreed that it's a hefty fee for something that probably won't help him much - unfortunately didn't find anyone with a greyhound who lives our side of town but we enjoyed the day (probably me more than Loot but he relaxed when we were moving) so I'll be going again when I see one advertised! He had a few barky episodes and I told one lady the loudness worried me as wasn't sure if he was being aggressive and she said he wasn't lunging or rearing or spinning so if it was just the loudness that concerned me, just 'let him sing'.

The next few upcoming events are stalls at dog/country shows though - I didn't have a chance to ask them if this is something that I could bring him to - anyone else go to stuff like that just to have a mooch about? Not sure if it would be good exposure or the environment may be a bit too much.

I also discovered en route to the park that when I shouted at the squirrel before Loot had seen it, the squirrel move straight for a tree so Loot wasn't as interested.. feel like he may have taught me a bad habit though!



Here he is (far left) having a little time out cuddle with my OH as he was whining when we stopped doing the walking thing.



Here he is impressing other owners with his unexpected 'sit' (yes there was food nearby!)

[kamkay]

We are all impressed that you have a greyhound that sits! Are you on Facebook? There may be a local sighthound group which walks regularly and if not , you could start one yourself which is what a group of us did in Sheffield.Many of us take our hounds to fundraisers , fairs etc it's all good practice for the hounds' socialisation. Love the photos: looks like you had a good time.

[Flaperoo]

Firstly I agree completely with everything everyone else has said. My first greyhound was a nervous wreck ) a different problem to Loot) but my second had a mental prey drive.

I was a complete novice and a bit overwhelmed when somebody gave me some brilliant advise; PATIENCE - which you have in abundance. You are doing everything right

Hundreds of years of breeding will not eliminate their prey drive which everyone who has had greys should always advise you. However that does not mean they are not dog friendly or cannot be socialised because even my most prey driven dog learned to walk calmly by my side if other out of control dogs approached her. In the end she only reacted if another dog tried to mount her.

Keep on doing what you are doing - you will be rewarded. I remember my first and feeling after one year had I done the right thing because he appeared to me to be so hyper and stressed and should I return him to kennels where he would not have to face these daily situations, but like you I kept going. One day he suddenly relaxed. He is now sadly gone from me but he became my heart dog but his legacy is 8 more greyhounds not ending up on the scrap heap but more importantly bringing such joy to my life.

Please keep us informed I would love to hear more about your progress

Maryxx

[gazer]

Well done on finding the walk, it's always good to speak with other hound owners.  Loot sounds like he did really well on the walk, there's not many greyhounds that don't like walking together and they are usually very well behaved.

Thanks for the pics, it's lovely to see so many black hounds there.

[lucyrw]

I am incredibly amused that you've started shouting at squirrels - are you teaching Loot or is he teaching you?? :-D :-D

[orlaka]

May 26, 2015 13:36:10 GMT -5 kamkay said:

...There may be a local sighthound group which walks regularly and if not , you could start one yourself which is what a group of us did in Sheffield.Many of us take our hounds to fundraisers , fairs etc it's all good practice for the hounds' socialisation. Love the photos: looks like you had a good time.

Not thought about looking on facebook - not got any hits on Sighthounds specifically but I've found a few called 'group dog walks' so have shot off some requests If fairs are good for socialisation then I think we'll be heading along to the next one - I'm looking forward to it already!

I don't know how to do a second quote on this board yet - "PATIENCE - which you have in abundance." I don't have patience in abundance but I've waited long enough to have my own dog that I have all the time in the world to work with him (except the bits where I have to work to earn his dog walkers' pay!).

I think after this weekend group walking is definitely a good possibility for helping him calm down around other breeds, I'm also going to nip up to the PDSA up the road and see if they can recommend any group classes for rescues (as a last ditch attempt, the experience with contacting the other one has put me off a little!)

Already feeling a lot better about where we are after all the positive responses from you guys and other hound people I've run into - and he met a new little terrier today and sniffed nicely then did a big play bow (then ran in circles around me) - not a shred of anything looking like aggressive when he got excited. The little dog didn't want to play as he interrupted her toilet but she didn't scamper off and trigger his chase face so he just came bounding back to me like 'what did I do wrong? why won't she play with me' and I gave him a big fuss for being nice and not terrifying her with his scary skeleton speed.

Gazer - the black hounds were definitely the largest colour group I saw and they were all very lovely. I made more dog friends than Loot did AND I got a prime opportunity to demonstrate to my OH how lovely multiples look together...

Lucy - Loot definitely taught me how to shout at squirrels, but since he's learnt so much I thought I should maybe share some dog stuff with him too ;-)  He started counter surfing just before the weekend so I'm also re-learning what is considered a dog-safe place for any food... All one big learning curve for us both!

[jodav]

Sounds like you and Loot are doing well with the group walk and the terrier encounter - the photos from the walk look lovely. As your confidence grows - so will Loots! Patience is something we have all learnt to develop in bucket loads, it really does pay off, even when you personally feel at a low ebb. Shouting at squirrels to make them scarper is novel and entertaining and certainly something I hadn't thought of! It may pay dividends but also bear in mind that we want our hounds to look to us for guidance and we need to remain calm. Faced with any tempting, furry, moving diversion, the ultimate payback is for our hound to give us eye-contact which we reward with praise or irresistible treat.

[marianfl]

Hello! Just coming back to training classes. My Mary was completely unsocialised when she came to us and I looked into training classes straight away. The classes closest to me were run by a local society, and were very reasonably priced, although I can't remember how much i paid. We enrolled on a 12 week couse leading to the kennel club bronze award. Maybe the fact that the society was not a profit making entity resulted in the low fees!

Anyway, my real point is that the idea of an initial one to one session seems like a profit making scheme to me! The classes I went to had many dogs with socialisation issues - that's why they were there! This was never a problem - the trainers were always very supportive and I give them much of the credit for her transformation.

Anyone near lichfield, I can' t recommend Lichfield and district dog training society enough!

[orlaka]

May 29, 2015 12:46:26 GMT -5 jodav said:

Shouting at squirrels to make them scarper is novel and entertaining and certainly something I hadn't thought of! It may pay dividends but also bear in mind that we want our hounds to look to us for guidance and we need to remain calm. Faced with any tempting, furry, moving diversion, the ultimate payback is for our hound to give us eye-contact which we reward with praise or irresistible treat.

I haven't tried it again because I'm not quite sure whether he'll take it as encouragement, and also whilst it worked that time he never really hears my voice raised so I don't want to spook him with a new mystery pitch only used around furry chaseables. 

Sounds like the unanimous review of the adult novice class wanting well socialised dogs is that it's not right for us. I think i'll still pop down and watch a session and talk to the trainer (even if it's just to see if I can get assent for hanging around outside when classes end for a bit more other-breed interaction) to give me a comparison if I find another more suitable class later.

I've emailed the other trainer I was talking to previously to see if she has a well behaved dog who could help him if I do a course of one to ones with her - she quoted me £150 for 6 private sessions used within 3 months which, in absence of a suitable class, sounds like the best approach for what I'm looking for if we can do some including her dog. 

I'll also keep an eye out for Jim Greenwood being in the area - thanks for the recommendation!

[orlaka]

So here's a quick update for you all that I think will make you smile;

I've still not arranged any obedience training but we happened upon a guy in the park with a lovely GSD a few weekends ago. Loot and I went over to say hello and he did a bit of shouting but I explained the issues I was having with socialising to his owner, who told me that there's a big group walk in our park every morning at half 8 - I was off sick from work last Monday so took him out later than I would normally and found them all!

There is a huge range of dogs (about 8 regulars in total I think) from a tiny old yorkie to the GSD (whose owner tipped us off). Loot had a bit of a shout at the collie and GSD (but the collie started it by snarling at him - and got told off by her owner for being a bitch) when we first met but mostly walked with me happily, if a little faster than everyone else. All the other dogs are off lead and he was quite happy for them to run about us without looking like he was itching for a chase - had a bit of an argument over one of the littler dogs' teddy but I got him to come away and it didn't get left unattended again!



He likes the other owners and today went running towards one of them wagging himself everywhere because her treat pocket is ALMOST in his reach.



He needs to learn manners about waiting his turn for treats - some of the dogs take their chunk very slowly and he tries to barge his head into the way and scarf it in front of them. They tolerate this very well and the other owners find it funny and are quite savvy - so we're working on 'wait' around other dogs and in the presence of food in the hope he'll stop being a bully when he learns he WILL get a treat if he's patient. He doesn't like it when I feed the other dogs though!



We also went on an adventure to Sheffield last Sunday and met the lovely Jackson, Ginny and Albie. We had a great big walk on some lovely new parks and then chilled out in the pub afterwards. He seemed at ease with both of them by the time we settled down - certainly comfortable enough to steal Ginny and Jackson's coats to sleep on!




Three in a row!

Still meeting the occasional dog that we don't like very much but he's barking at new dogs less frequently and has started having a sniff then coming back to me to see if he gets a treat so things aren't as intense and if there's a problem we can move off quite easily.

I've got a new dog walker as well and he's very complementary of Loot (I suspect he's complementary of all the dogs he walks but I'm still really proud Loots' behaving and they seem to be having a lot of fun) who leaves me mini reports and says he is 'handling' being near other dogs very well. At the moment he's getting individual hour walks but the guy does group walks as well and I think next month when they know eachother better I might ask if I can go on a group walk with them both and see how he gets along. I can only make the 8.30 walk on days I'm working a late start (and already told my team I'm going to be doing this once a week!) so if he gets along with them and can go at lunchtime with some other dogs it'd be great.

Finding a pack walk in the park feels like my patience has just paid off in spades, and what's more this week I've got a friend visiting with a car so we can drive somewhere for an off lead adventure! Life is good for me and Loot